D.O. or Do Not: The Osteopathic Physician's Journey for Premed & Medical Students

Episode 33: Jennifer Caudle D.O. Family Medicine Physician

February 16, 2021 Season 1 Episode 33
D.O. or Do Not: The Osteopathic Physician's Journey for Premed & Medical Students
Episode 33: Jennifer Caudle D.O. Family Medicine Physician
Show Notes Transcript

Dr. Jennifer Caudle is a board-certified family medicine physician and associate professor in the department of Family Medicine at Rowan University School of Osteopathic Medicine. Prior to this appointment, Dr. Caudle was a faculty member in the Johns Hopkins University/Sinai Hospital residency program in internal medicine in Baltimore, MD, and an instructor of medicine at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine.

Dr. Caudle graduated with honors from Princeton University and earned her medical degree from UMDNJ School of Osteopathic Medicine.

She appears as a regular on-air health expert for local and national news networks, including The TODAY Show, The Dr. Oz Show, CNN, FOX News, The Rachael Ray Show, The Steve Harvey Show, Fox 29 Philadelphia News, PBS, and many others.

Her health articles have been published in The Daily Beast, CNN.com, DoctorOz.com, and ABCNews.com, and she has been quoted by USA Today, Cosmopolitan Magazine, Prevention, Shape, The Huffington Post, Reader's Digest, Good Housekeeping, Men’s Health, and others.

Dr. Jen is a spokesperson for the American Osteopathic Association and a radio/video host for ReachMD.

She is a national lecturer on opioid prescribing for physicians. She presents the CORE-REMS “ER/LA Opioid REMS: Achieving Safe Use While Improving Patient Care” lecture throughout the country.  She also presents workshops on health, wellness, and motivation to companies and organizations, and she lectures on the topic of childhood bullying to hospitals and healthcare organizations.

As a musician who plays the cello, Dr. Caudle has performed in orchestras and string ensembles internationally. She attended Walnut Hill School for the Arts and studied cello at the New England Conservatory of Music Preparatory School during her high school years. Dr. Caudle is a former trustee of Walnut Hill School for the Arts. 

In 1999, Dr. Caudle earned the title of Miss Iowa and competed in the 1999 Miss America Pageant.

Interviewed by Dr. Carisa Champion
Edited by Thomas Jasionowski

My name is Dr. Ian Storch. I'm a board certified gastroenterologist and osteopathic physician,

and you are listening to DO or do not. If you're interested in joining our team or

have suggestions or comments, please contact us at DoOrDoNotPodcast.com. Share our link

with your friends and like us on Apple Podcasts, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. We hope

you enjoy this episode. So, hi everyone. My name is Carissa Champion. I'm a physician

in Florida, and I'm really excited to have on our podcast one of my mentors and role

models and friends, Dr. Jen Cottle. She is a family physician and she's an osteopathic

physician. She has such an amazing background that I think I could take the entire podcast

time to just do her bio, but I definitely want to get to talking about her. Some of

the things that I think are highlights that are really cool and unique are that she was

actually a contestant on Miss America, and she is really involved in media for a billion

different TV shows and different media outlets where she talks about medicine and really

has a great audience in public health for that. She also is a celloist somehow at the

same time and really is a great mentor for a lot of medical students and physicians.

She's definitely been a role model to me, so without further ado, I'm so excited to

be talking to Dr. Cottle. Hi. Welcome to our podcast. We're so excited to have you. Well,

I am so excited to be here. I have been looking forward to doing this podcast with you for

a while now. Thank you for inviting me. It's great to be here.

Yeah, it definitely has been trying to figure out our schedules. Thank you so much. I think

it's kind of interesting that even though we kept trying to figure out when to do this,

that we ended up doing it right around National Women's Physicians Day.

I know, which is awesome. Yeah, I'm just stoked about that. Thank you so much. We're excited

to have you. We're just going to talk a little bit about some of your background. One thing

I'm really excited about with podcasts is that it gives people a chance to hear people's

stories and to hear stories that may resonate with them and inspire them and maybe give

them direction in their own life and relate to people. I think that you have a really

cool and relatable story in so many ways, so I'm excited to get to be a part of telling

that a little bit. You're sweet.

With that in mind, can you give me a little bit of an understanding of what it's like

in a day, a typical day for you as you have all these different roles? You're a media

influencer. You work on different TV shows. You're a family physician. You're definitely

an outspoken osteopathic physician. How do you roll all of those into a typical day?

Well, I do sometimes feel like my day is like a million days in one. Today is a good example

of a day like that, and I'll tell you what today was like for me. I have to really thank

my employer, which Rowan University School of Osteopathic Medicine is more than an employer.

I went to school there when it was UMD&J, SOM, and now it's Rowan. They raised me in

a way. I went to medical school. I did my last two years of residency there, and then

being on the faculty there, I owe so much to them in terms of allowing me to pursue

things that are of interest to me in terms of media and work like that, but also to help

support our school with media, because every time I go on TV or whatever, I have the opportunity

to have Dr. Jane Cottle Rowan University, so I love being able to spread the name of

my university, which I'm so grateful for. The cool thing about the work that I do is

I am an associate professor at Rowan SOM, and I'm a co-clerkship director for the third

year of family medicine clerkship. I see patients two to three days per week, depending on the

week, and then I do media two to three days per week, depending on the week. Many days

I'm seeing patients and doing media the same day, because media doesn't necessarily only

come when I have those days to do media. It's a wonderful opportunity because it gives me

the time to do media. Media is often spur of the moment. It's often spontaneous. You

don't get a lot of notice, so to be able to have blocks of time where I'm able to do media

is excellent. It's just awesome. Wow. You definitely are intentional about creating

margin in your schedule, which I'm sure is part of how you can stay so balanced.

Well, I really appreciate that compliment. I cannot say that I'm always balanced because

I love my work so much. I find myself working so much, and I don't want to make that sound

too rosy. I mean, yes, I love what I do, and I think that mixed in with the COVID pandemic

and not being able to be with family and friends, I just find myself working all the time, which

is not what I'm advising for people out there. I don't know that it's necessarily that I've

been able to carve out time, but, Carissa, to your point, over the years as an attending

at Rowan, I did speak with my deans and my department chairs about my interests and how

if they were willing to work with me on a schedule that might allow some of those things.

For that, I'm really grateful. Yes, I had to go to them with ideas, and they were always

very open and very gracious. Yeah, it definitely has been a collaboration. I did have to think

ahead about what would work here, what could work.

Wow. It sounds like your time at Rowan was very influential on you. I know that you and

I have personally spoken about this, but I think that a lot of people would be interested

to know how you became interested in media. I know that you've done a couple rotations

as a medical student, as a resident, and you, like you said, have worked with people to

allow yourself that freedom to be able to be involved in those things, but what got

you interested in media?

You mentioned in my bio, and I don't know that everyone knows this, but, certainly,

repeating the Miss America Pageant was a big part of my life, not because it was something

I did a lot, but it's because it made a really big impact on me. I didn't do my first pageant

until I was 20 years old. I wasn't one of these girls that did pageants all my life

and grew up in that. In fact, I really didn't think of myself as much of a pageant type

at all, and I don't even now. I did it when I was a college student at Princeton, really,

to try to earn money. Miss America is one of the world's largest scholarship organizations

for women, and I didn't really know that even though I watched the pageant growing up. I

didn't understand how big of a scholarship provider it was, so I did it for money. I

was working four jobs off and on throughout college and doing all sorts of odd jobs and

things like that, so that's why I did it, but I was kind of shy and a little embarrassed

and really felt like such an unlikely candidate. I didn't even tell anybody I was competing

because I just felt like they would laugh at me or something, and I was like, I'm not

telling anybody I'm doing this. What ended up happening was four pageants later, I found

myself at the Miss America pageant representing the state of Iowa. I was Miss Iowa in 1999.

Even though I really never planned on doing a pageant, I found myself in this environment

where I just gained a lot of skills. I developed a lot of self-confidence. I realized I could

do things I never thought I could do. I realized I could be things I never thought I could

be. It was really a huge confidence builder for me, and for that reason, in addition to

the scholarship money, I'm like, I'm eternally grateful. Part of the confidence building

and stuff like that had to do with my job as Miss Iowa. As a state representative, you

travel and you speak at schools, at ribbon-cutting ceremonies, you name it. I really came to

love communications, and this brings me back to your saying, well, why did you want to

do media? It was a couple years after the Miss Iowa pageant that I went to med school,

and I realized, wow, I really loved my time communicating with people and talking and

trying to do good that way. Maybe I can mix medicine with communications and somehow.

Is there a way I can do that? That's really where the idea started. It's really just the

idea of on TV, on radio, on social media, in print, I can reach way more people than

I can in the office when I see patients one at a time. That's really what I fell in love

with.

I love that. Obviously, you and I have spoken about that before, and that's something I

can really relate to. I really think that that's something that a lot of people can

learn so much from. You've spoken so much about different topics that impact a lot of

people's lives, and you have that platform to do that. With that, you've spoken a lot

about osteopathic medicine on social media. What do you think? I just want to hear your

thoughts on that. Do you think that DOs need to do more to speak out on social media about

osteopathic medicine and raise awareness of that? What are your thoughts on how physicians

and specifically osteopathic physicians can better use media?

Sure. Well, no, I'm always a fan of advocacy. I have to say, what I'm really loving seeing

as much as I hate this pandemic, and it really is so horrible, one of the things I think

that has come out of this or is happening is physicians, whether we're MDs or DOs, physicians

are speaking. I'm a part of more physicians groups now than I ever have been on social

media. I'm seeing physicians speak out and make their voice known about whether it's

treatments for COVID, whether it's getting the COVID vaccine, whatever the case may be.

In the particular situation you're talking about, which was the advocating for DOs, that

was regarding... I'm trying to think, oh, it had to do with DOs being referenced in

disparaging ways in the media with regards to some news that's happened over the last

few months. DOs being referred to as not what we are, not as first-class, first-rate physicians,

but myths and misconceptions about us. Hearing whether it was newscasters perpetuate these

myths or seeing it written about really angers me. I am a DO. You're a DO. We are DOs, and

I chose to be a DO, as I know many of us did. I often tell the story that when I was at

Princeton I wasn't even told about osteopathic medicine. I didn't even know what DOs were,

and it wasn't until I was applying, doing my applications. I had applied after my Miss

Iowa year, so it was a year or two after college, or I was doing my applications then. My mother

was like, oh, are you going to apply to osteopath or osteopathic school or whatever? I was like,

what's that? Bones? You know, like what everybody says. I didn't realize that my family doctor,

the doctor who took care of my family and I, was a DO. Dr. Johnson, the doctor who took

care of my whole family. I was like, who are these people? Who are these people? Literally

at that moment, sort of like in the beginning of the internet, this was literally in the

beginning of 2000, 20 years ago plus, I was on the internet trying to figure out who DOs

are and calling ACOM and whatever, and I just fell in love. I didn't apply to any MD school.

I only applied to DO schools because of how much I love the philosophy. That's why during

this time, and it happens every now and then, where DOs will be in the news or something

will come up about osteopathic medicine and we'll have to fight misconceptions. That's

why I spoke up and still will and always will because, number one, the misconceptions are

wrong and number two, I'm very proud of being an osteopathic physician. I chose this. This

was my choice. It was my only choice. It was the only choice I wanted. So yeah, I'm always

a fan of physicians and doctors speaking up. I also do believe that we all have our own

particular gifts and strengths and traits, right? So for some people, it may not be advocacy.

It may not be advocacy of this type. It may be of a different kind, but whatever it is

that we do as individuals to speak up, for lack of a better word, I think is important.

Yeah. You're right. We all have our own spheres of influence and passions. I love that you

only applied to DO schools. I actually was the same way. I knew that I wanted to be a

DO and I think that that is such a cool thing that there are so many people that specifically

wanted to be a part of that culture. Right. So going through medical school, gosh, you

went through Miss America pageant and then you went to medical school. What drew you

to medicine after that? Yeah, it's a good question. So I should have been clear. Medicine

was always the plan. So I was pre-med in college. Medicine was always the plan. I just took

the detour. So I was a college student. I was a sophomore, pre-med, doing all my stuff.

I learned about the Miss America pageant when I was home for Easter break in Iowa. I was

at church and this woman at our church told us about it. To get to the point of Miss America,

you have to compete on a local level and then a state level. So I started competing at a

local level when I would go back and forth from Iowa, back to school, whatever. I would

I won the pageant site and then I ended up going to Miss America. And when I won the

title of Miss Iowa, it happened to coincide with the same weekend I graduated from Princeton.

And what I did because that happened was I ended up taking a year off so that I could

compete and be Miss Iowa and focus on that. And that's why, and then I ended up getting

a job at MTV network the next year from the work I had done as Miss Iowa. But it was then

after that that I went to med school. The plan was always to go to med school. This

was really just a detour, a surprising detour that gave me a little extra added experience

and some new stuff.

I feel like a lot of the cool things in life, and I think that you and I have actually talked

about this before, but a lot of the cool things in life I find are kind of those things you

didn't necessarily plan for.

Totally. So with you on that. Well, it was a lot of fun and, you know, look, it was a

lot of hard work. It was I met a lot of amazing women doing amazing things, women who even

now to this day have changed the world or changing the world. They become politicians,

doctors, lawyers. I mean, it's really it's a remarkable group of women. And I think one

of the things that one of the reasons why I'm so upfront about talking about the experiences,

it changed my mind. I was one of these people that was maybe a little skeptical, maybe a

little bit like, I don't know about this. I certainly didn't see myself as a pageant

type. And, you know, maybe I was worried about what people would think about me for being

in a pageant. And I think one of the best parts of that experience, not only was gaining

the confidence that I gained, the women that I met, the inspiration, et cetera, was was

literally being proven wrong and learning. Wow. Okay, I was I was wrong. And this is

freaking amazing. And so no, I'm very proud of that experience and very thankful for the

scholarship money. Because again, why I did it wasn't to be miss something or other. I

needed money. And I was the cool thing about Miss America was even though I competed, I

was Miss Iowa in 1999. When I was in med school, like in 2003, I was still able to apply to

scholarships for Miss America. And I got scholarship money even as a med student four or five years

later for med school. So it was it just was like, I so needed it. It's so awesome. You

know,

there's so many directions that I want to go from here, because I want to touch on so

much of what you just talked about. So, you know, as a woman, and we're talking again,

National Women Physicians Day, having gone through a pageant or getting attention, because,

you know, number one, you're obviously gorgeous. How do you feel like that impacted your

professional career? Right? I mean, yeah, I feel like it's a bunch of different perspectives

out there. Like, how do you feel women go through their career with the identity of

being a woman that it's okay to be feminine, that it's okay to be proud of how you portray

your femininity? How do you feel like that may have evolved or not have evolved? And

do you have any advice for younger women going through their beginnings of their careers

with that perspective?

Yeah, no, that's an excellent question. I mean, I'll be very honest with you. In the

beginning of my career as a brand new attending, I was at Hopkins, I was at Sinai Hospital

in Baltimore, and we had a joint residency with Hopkins. And I was afraid for anyone

to find out I've been in a pageant, because I was afraid of what they might think. I hate

that I felt that way. But I'd be I wouldn't be honest with you if I didn't say that, you

know, because it's very real. But I also felt that way with media too early on, you know,

back in the day, you know, nobody was doing media, who was a doctor, there was no social

media. So, you know, now we have Instagram influencers, and this and that, and so cool.

But that didn't exist 20 years ago. And I was also afraid of people thinking that I

was just somebody who wanted to be on TV and wasn't like a real like a serious doctor.

I was worried about that too. And those are just very real concerns. You know, look, I'm

a woman, I'm a black woman. I was a young doctor in in like my career, you know, I wasn't

an established attending who had, you know, had been out and you know, so no, I was worried

and felt that, you know, I didn't know if I would be negatively or improperly or incorrectly

judged because of my first two years as an attending, I didn't tell anybody I did miss

I or miss America said no, there's not much of a reason to talk about it anyway. Right.

But I was very protective of, you know, my my experiences, because I didn't know how

that would impact me. Even media, you know, I didn't talk a lot about my hopes and desires

as a young attending. And I do think that as a as a woman, as a woman of color, you

know, as a woman, I mean, we have to, I don't want to say we have to, but these are often

things that we think about. I mean, look, there are still women who feel nervous about

getting pregnant while practicing as a physician for fear of judgment or whatever, right?

So my point is less about the shame that it is that we worry about these things, because

that's not my point. And it's not a shame. That's reality. That's the realness of the

situation. The shame is that we live in a society that makes us second guess and question

these things, whether it's having a child or go pursuing interests or what have you,

that's that's what the shame is. So but no, I very, very honestly, no, I worried about

that I as I've gotten older, and we're established as an attending, you know, I've been out for

I've been attending for 12 years now. It's so funny, I actually just did a session with

rowing SOM students, a zoom session for one of the clubs, where students wanted to ask

me questions about media. And now with students in residence, I'm so much more comfortable

and able to be transparent about my journey and who I am. And, you know, I know students

and residents see my stuff on social media, and it's okay now. But look, 10 years ago,

it was just a whole different thing. Point to that. What's the right answer? Well, there

is no right answer. What's right is what feels right to each individual person. And that's

why I say, you know, in our journeys as physicians, as professionals, etc, whether as a mom, I'm

not a mom, but you know, for those who are moms, whatever, you know, time sometimes changes

how we feel about things. And I think the only thing that we are obligated to do is

to act according to what makes sense and feels right to us at the time, understanding that

fairly, we may be judged for things, right? And that is a fact. That is a fact. It's an

it's an unfair fact. But it's a fact. I love that. Thank you. I mean, it's refreshing to

hear, you know, transparently, like that is the truth. It is. It's hard. But it's true.

You know, you've spoken a lot about, you know, women empowerment, you obviously, I think,

to me, anyway, you definitely embody women empowerment. And I know that you've done a

lot for women. You I think you have you have like a clothing company or you have an attire

type branding situation. And you also, I think, promote a scholarship for for black students

for college, right? Correct. Yeah, yeah. No, look at you. I'm so impressed. You can read

and haven't you? Yeah, no. So, you know, I'm proud of you, Jen. Honestly, I just sorry,

Dr. Cotter, you just you're incredible. First of all, you were on first name basis, Missy.

You can call me Jennifer. Hello. You're so funny. Yeah, no, when you're very sweet. I'm

proud of you, too. I mean, although I feel silly using that we're proud because it sort

of implies that, you know, anyone had anything to do with this but you. I mean, you you're

really I hope you're doing your own podcast at some point. I hope somebody's interviewing

you because there are not women like I'm serious. I know. Wait, hold on. Is somebody interviewing

you for your podcast? And I hope the editors don't cut this out. Keep this in place. Are

you being interviewed? Yeah, they are interviewing me too. Yes. Very good. Okay, good. Just need

to make sure because you have such an inspirational story and you are very inspiring. I mean,

talk about a beast that is that is you. So, okay, anyway, I'm going to stop talking about

you because you probably want me to stop. But what I will say is, yeah, as you know,

as time has gone on, I have sort of delved into the area of sort of branding and stuff

like that, really just to reach my audience in different ways. Honestly, my audience started

asking for things like, Hey, do you have a line of face masks? I'm like, No, I still

don't. Because, you know, I just don't. But what I do is I have some t shirts that I sell

through my YouTube channel and through my website at Dr. Jen Caldwell calm. And I just

released a new line of t shirts that celebrate getting the COVID vaccine. So they say I got

the COVID vaccine so that people can be really proud just like as health care providers.

I just know that before I got the vaccine, it was neat seeing all of our physician colleagues

and health care provider colleagues getting the vaccine. It just made me so excited to

get it. And I remember thinking like, what if I weren't in health care? Would I have

the same positive sort of stimulus and stimuli that I have because I'm a health care provider?

So a couple things I did was I started a Facebook group called I got the COVID vaccine. Very

simple. But it's a public group for anyone who's got the COVID vaccine plans to get it

or wants to learn from people who actually got it so that real people can hear from real

people who got the vaccine. And then I started selling t shirts that said I got the COVID

vaccine just as a way to celebrate this portion of the proceeds for everything I sell goes

to either a scholarship at Lane College, which is where my parents is a HBCU, a historically

black college that my parents went to. But as of the last year during the pandemic, I've

been getting a giving a portion of the proceeds to the Red Cross because well, we all need

the Red Cross and they're doing a lot. So so yeah, it's just a way to kind of give back

and to, you know, celebrate and you know, all that good stuff, you know,

that is so amazing. I love that so much. Okay, I have so many more questions that I know

we we only have a few more minutes. So obviously, you know, students that students wrote in

saying they wanted to hear from you. There were so many people that were like, we want

to hear more. You're lying. What? No, I'm not. I'm not lying. I'm not lying. People

were like, you have to interview this lady. She's incredible. So I mean, I was like, absolutely

we do because she's amazing. But well, students and whoever wrote in God bless you like I'm

like, holy, holy, that like warms my heart. Well, I'm just I'm trying to do them justice

because they have so many questions. And I feel like you need your own TV show to answer

all of them. But a lot of them were, you know, obviously, wanting to know advice for those

who may or may not be physicians or in the medical field, but advice for those in general

on how to get started in media and you know, using their voice and their platform, since

you've been really successful in that if you have advice for for them. Absolutely. Well,

so one thing I'll say is what's really, really cool right now with social media in

blogging and vlogging and podcasting, you know, is that there are so many outlets to

make a dent in this world, which is awesome. And when we talk about media, we're not just

talking about TV anymore. We're talking about radio and podcasts and social media and blogs

and blogs. And, and I love that. So the first thing I actually suggest, I learned a lot

from the people who came before me doing media, doing TV. And when I started, it was really

just TV. There are some amazing physicians on social media on TV that have podcasts,

blogs that are doing frickin crazy, amazing things. And one of the first things I suggest

for any students or residents out there who are interested is you need to follow some

of these folks to get a taste for what's possible. See how people do different things. See how

they get their voice across. There's a few names that come off the top of my head, but

I'm also afraid to mention some names for fear of leaving out other names of people

of doctors who are doing amazing things. Maybe what I need to do is get together a list of

people. Like there are so many awesome physicians that are social media influencers, meaning

that they, they simply create content that influences the masses, which is amazing. That's

the first thing I would do is find other people who are doing this, find the people who are

just doing TV. Like Sanjay Gupta, right? He does TV. He's got social media and stuff through

CNN. But then there's also people who do their own content. People like myself, Dr. Mike

has his own con, Zooming pneumonia. And then there are people that do social media that

are on TikTok, et cetera. There's, you know, find out and watch what they do, watch how

they do it. Think about what makes sense. Do you like it? Do you not? What's your style?

What do you want? Maybe you don't want any of that. Maybe you want something totally

different. I think the best place to get ideas as a play juristic Lee as a sound is that's

what you get ideas from other people, not ideas that you steal, but ideas to understand

what is it that you want, right? That's definitely the first place that I would start then. And

I'll keep the second part simple because we could probably do 10 podcasts. I'm like, how

do you actually get into it? There's a lot of different ways to literally I say break

into it, but I'll be honest with you, a very simple and straightforward way is just creating

your own content. And that doesn't have to be as big as making videos. You don't need

a production company. You don't need to, you know, set aside hours and hours a day. All

you need is an iPhone. And if you don't have time to make videos, or if that's not your

thing, then post a picture with a thoughtful caption. That's a way to get across your message.

So remember, you know, being in media and doing media can take many, many different

forms. And I think keeping an open mind and being thoughtful about that is one of the

best things you can do. I love it. Well, you're right, we could do like 10 podcasts on this.

And if you ever want to please let me know because that would be fun. Oh, nice. But I

want to also talk, you know, we're in the midst of a really important month. And we're

doing a bunch of podcasts involving physician leaders who are African American. And I wanted

to talk a little bit about your experience. I don't think that a few minutes is enough

to respect that and to capture that. But I at least want to touch on it somewhat. So

can you talk about being a minority? You know, you're a woman, you're an osteopathic physician,

and you're African American. You know, what advice do you have for other students, other

women, other African Americans that are that are thinking about osteopathic medical school

and you know, just in general, I'm sure that you have a lot to say on that. But I just

wanted to have you touch on that if you could. Sure. No, no. And I appreciate your words

about, you know, the importance of touching on it. But you're right, as I'm thinking about

how do I want to answer the question, like, oh, crap, where do I start? Good googly moogly,

as I often say to myself when I'm thinking. There's a couple of things I think I need

to say. And they may not be connected or interrelated. But first is this issue or the reality that

we're living in, which is, you know, America today, the fact that systemic and institutionalized

racism has literally been a part of this country's history since its inception. Now, to go back

to way, way back in the day, and I'm not going to do all that. But but I would be remiss

to not mention that, although we have made many, many, many strides, and we have moved

forward in many, many ways, racism still exists in this country. And we know that for well,

we know that. But you know, we also know that with this year's events, we're literally living

through a racial reckoning, one that's been very painful for this country, through George

Floyd and so many other events that have brought this to the forefront. Now, it's not that

we didn't know this was happening. It's just I think now a lot more people know it's happening

and know that racism has been an issue. So I say all of that because I feel like I can't

even start to talk about race before I actually say that. It's almost like I don't even feel

right even talking about being a black woman before I say, let's just remember and remind

ourselves that racism actually has always been here. And it still is. Although we are

working societally to get better. What I would say in that regard is that it's not always

easy being a black woman. It's not always easy being a woman. I'm going to focus on

being a black woman because that's what I am. But no, it's it's not always easy. And

sometimes it's still very hard. And do I still encounter racism every single day? Sometimes

it's louder than other times. As I mentioned, when I was thinking about media early in my

career and the pageants I've done, did I worry about being discriminated against even further

and a black woman in medicine? And now is it going to be even harder for me because

of these other things I want to do that are unconventional? So I am saying this to every

black woman, every black man, every person of color out there that you don't understand

that while every single day that we wake up, we never forget that we are a person of color

in this country. It should never stop us from doing what we feel is right, good and important

in our lives. Not that I would expect it would for any listeners. If you're listening to

this podcast, you probably already feel that way. As much as things have been hard in this

last year and still have been hard throughout the entire history of America, there is hope.

As people of color, I do trust and believe that things will continue to get better. Things

will still be hard, but I guess my purpose is to encourage and to inspire. I am so proud

of who I am. I would never want to be anyone different ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever,

ever. And the world is your oyster. And so I know that this sounds a bit stilted because

I'm literally sort of thinking on the spot and I guess I don't know. I don't know why.

It's not that this question is hard for me to answer. It's just I don't know why I feel

like I'm in the state of mind that I am right now. I just don't want anyone out there who's

listening, if you're a student, et cetera, and you feel like it's tough. I'm just going

to be the first one to tell you if no one else has, it's okay. And yes, it is tough

sometimes, a lot of times, but it's okay and you're going to be okay and you're going to

get through this. And I can say that for women, it's tough. Yeah, it's tough for us. We make

less, we're promoted less, we're looked over more. We've got ceilings all around us and

it's tough and it's going to be tough, but that's okay and we're going to get through

this. So Chris, I'm not sure really what question I asked or answered for you, but I think suffice

it to say that if those listening can't tell, there's never a single day or a moment in

my life that I'm not keenly aware that I'm a black woman, regardless of what it seems.

I don't know what it seems like to people. I have no idea. There's not a single moment

of any day that I don't remember that. And I love being a black woman, but with that,

it's tough. But also with that, I know that things will continue to get better. And honestly,

the sky's the limit. So I don't know, before I talk myself into a circle again, I'm going

to stop right there. Wow. I just genuinely, you know, I've heard a lot of people talk

on this topic and I don't know why, but your words just made me tear up. I mean, it was

so beautiful and amazing. So thank you for being open. I hope that people hear this and

can hear your words because they were really beautiful. Thank you. I hope someone listening,

you know. Yeah. And you know, do you, there's obviously so many barriers that we're working

to overcome. I mean, I'm focusing on medicine, but just in general even, but you know, opening

up opportunities and recognizing the gifts that every person has and the striving to

honor that. So many barriers that we're working to overcome, especially for, you know, increasing

our diversity in medical education. Are there any, and I don't know if you have anything

or any thoughts on this or not, but if you have any thoughts or advice for black students

who are wanting to go to medical school or wanting to do something like that, or if there's

something that you think helped make you successful in your own definition of that. Yeah. Thank

you for asking. This is a, these are really great questions and I appreciate you giving

me the opportunity to actually speak specifically about this because it really does matter.

You know, the phrase representation matters. I hear it all the time, but I think it's in

the last year or so that I really, really, really like, it just hit me in the stomach,

right? How much it matters. You know, when I was applying to med schools and getting

ready to med schools, I was told things that some, some other people are probably told,

you know, Oh, I don't know about your MCATs. I don't know if they're high enough. I know

about your grades and you know, look, I had a lot of self doubt. I wondered if I was good

enough. I wondered if I would, would be good enough. I wondered if I would get in. I wondered

if I was worthy. I wondered if I, when I got in, if I would make it, I wondered if I would,

I wondered every step of the way and I worried every step of the way. And I think one of

the things that really, really helped me keep my head up and be able to keep my head up

and keep moving forward on those days that I really felt like, I just don't know if I

can do this. I just don't know if it's going to happen. It was surrounding myself with

people that were good for me and good to me, whether it's mentors that are always there

to kind of give you a pat on the back and kind of lift you up and say, Hey, go get him

tiger, you know, put on some lipstick and comb your hair and get on back out there to

the library and study or whatever the case was. Or maybe it's friends or family members

who just were just always supportive. I would also say in this day and age of social media

and this is not specific to say black students. I want this, you know, I obviously this particular,

I don't want to say this particular part, but I mean, this is for anybody, right? This

idea of, I think one of my keys to success over the years, sometimes people ask is, you

know, what, what, what do you think has helped you be successful? For me, it's been not listening

to other people. If I listened to other, if I listened to all the freaking people that

had, excuse my French, shit to say to me, I, I wouldn't be anywhere near where I am

for better or for worse. I mean, I think that in within this day and age of social media,

where you can literally see inside people's homes in their bowls of acai berries and crap

like that, you know, things, what they're eating for lunch and what they're doing. And

you can literally see into people's lives, whether it's the truth or the truth that they

want you to think this world is gets a little, it gets a little funny with the messages that

we give and whether it's chat rooms, pre-med chat rooms, or this and that comparison is

a dream killer, man. Nothing will kill a dream quicker than comparison, comparing yourself

to someone else's journey or to someone else to their path. Oh, well, they got in after

this or they had a score of this and nothing feels better than that. Or we'll make you

lose sleep due to anxiety. And I'll say it once again, if I listened to what other people

think or thought about the things I was doing, I never would have done most things in my

life. I didn't tell anyone I was competing for Miss America, number one, because I was

a little embarrassed. I didn't know what people would think about me. But I was also afraid

that they would also think I was probably not worthy and make me feel like, what are

you doing competing in a pageant? Which they might have, and which case might have changed

my trajectory. I couldn't afford to change my trajectory. And I still can't. I never

can, which is why I don't usually talk to a lot of people. Now, I'm not trying to tell

you to become like a hermit. That's not my point. No, I'm not exaggerating. I kind of

keep things close to the belt because I don't know. It's too important. So I guess what

I'm saying is for those pre-meds, black students, people of color, non-people of color, whatever,

as you're going through your life and trying to accomplish your goals, be very, very careful

who you let in to your mind, into your heart, into your psyche. Be thoughtful about that

and take care of yourself and be around situations and people and environments that are good

for you. Not every environment is going to give you the nourishment that you need to

succeed. So you owe it to yourself to only be in those environments that are good for

you, that support you, that encourage you, that give you the strength and the motivation

that you need. Not be environments that may tear you down or question you or what have

you. We can all make those decisions for ourselves.

Everybody has a different tolerance for differences of opinions, et cetera. But something that's

helped me is just kind of keeping my head down and moving forward.

I love that. But at the same time, and I know we only have a few minutes left. I have one

question after this, but at the same time, sometimes you have to get through those environments

to get on the other side and it can be really hard.

We do have to get through those environments and maybe in addition to me, maybe that was

also my way of getting through them. Maybe that was a way that I was able to sort of

deal with the naysayers and the this's and that's was to kind of tune it out or to try

to put it in a place where I didn't try to let it internalize and become internal. Look,

I'm not going to say it's easy and I'm not going to say I'm always the best at doing

it. The Rowan students that I was just doing this Skype for before I got onto this podcast

with you, one student asked me, they said, have you ever gotten, well, how do you deal

with negative feedback on social media? They said, how do you deal with negative comments

and this and that? And I told some stories about how early on I destroyed. And through

time, however, my skin got thicker and I also was able to learn from those events. Not that

I would have changed anything because I wouldn't. I said what I needed to say on TV. People

just didn't like me saying that vaccines are good. So people who didn't like vaccines decided

to rip me a new one and and things like that. But it taught me a lot. So I think, Chris,

I think your point is a good one in that, you know, look, maybe we always can't tune

out other people. So maybe we can. But they it is important to learn how to deal with

adversity, though, because that is something we're all we're always going to have, especially

if you're trying to make a mark in this world. There's always going to be someone who's not

crazy about it, who doesn't want to hear it from you or or just doesn't like you or doesn't

like what you're saying. That is always going to be the case. So, so, yeah, developing a

tough skin is going to be very, very important, as we always say, as I always say, you put

learning to put on our big girl panties and, you know, through it. But it definitely is

a balance as we're trying to go through this thing called life, you know, balance of making

sure we're in positive, supportive environments, but also making sure that we're able to withstand

the tough environments that we eventually will be in, because that's just life.

I love that. Thank you. That speaks to me too. So I really appreciate that. I have one

more question. Yes, yes. Just to close out on what was the best piece of advice that

you've gotten in your career, your education, growing up medical school, college residency,

whatever that may be that you still think of and that you would want to pass on to others

or students or just people in general. Oh, my gosh. That's such a pageant question,

by the way. Do you know what makes that a pageant question? In a good way. It's not

a bad thing. So when I was getting ready for Miss America, like we had mock interviews

because an interview component was part of the final score. And it was actually when

I competed, the biggest part of the score. So I would practice with my, you know, my

pageant board, answering questions, how to answer questions, things like that. Questions

that I always struggled with, that I personally call pageant questions, are the questions

that are not, that are open ended. You know what I mean? Like what's the one thing? What's

your favorite, you know, what's the best? What's the, and I always struggle with those

because I'm like, Oh my God, I can't pick one. How are you supposed to answer those

questions? I mean, the hope is that I sometimes just feel like I'm indecisive, right? So I

feel like, what do you mean my favorite singer? What do you mean my favorite actor? What do

you mean my favorite piece of advice? I've got 50 million. I think that some people are

just better at questions like that, number one. And I think some people probably have

more salient sort of, you know, things that they remember. I don't know. But okay, but

I'm going to take a stab at it. I don't know if it's okay. It's not necessarily a piece

of advice that I've gotten, but there's a couple of things, quotes. I'm big on quotes.

I love quotes. Things that I've heard or encountered over the years that have continued to shape

who I am. Okay, so one of them is a quote by Mae West. And she said, you only live once,

but if you do it right, once is enough. Right? Does that not like you in the stomach? Like

we get one shot on this planet. That's it. But you know what, if you do it the right

way, all you need is one time, which like it still sends chills up my spine. And it

really is part of like who I am as a person. It's probably one of the reasons why I engage

myself in the projects I do. And I mean, look, I know you're like a freaking badass. I know

all the stuff you do. You're amazing. But you know, it's kind of like when you're living

your passion, when you're living your dreams, like you wouldn't have it any other way. And

if you had to do it all over again, you wouldn't do it any differently. Maybe it also means

that you only need to live once. You know, if you do it right, you don't need any more

times around the sun. Anyway, so I love that. And then I also love this quote by Marianne

Williamson, who said that, and this is part of the quote, it's an excerpt from it. She

said, one of our greatest fears is not that we are inadequate. It's that we are powerful

beyond measure. Who are we fabulous and wonderful and beautiful and amazing? And who are we

to be all these awesome things? But really, who are you not to be? Right? Like who are

you not to be beautiful, amazing, awesome, smart? You know, people say, well, you know,

we shrink ourselves, right? We shrink ourselves to fit into other people's boxes, to fit

into other people's worlds, or the world's world, whatever, saying, you know, gosh, who

am I to be everything? Who am I? But the question is, who are you not to be? Right? Like, oh

my God, love, love, love, love, love that. And it gives me fire. It gives me drive. It

keeps me saying, well, shoot, doggone it, you better get on up here and go do something.

And let me see if I have one more for you. Like, so quotes, I just, I don't know, man,

I just, I just, I just love. And then maybe I'll leave you with a medical student thing.

This is something I tell a lot of my medical students, which is just a little different

than some of the greater life stuff. But I'm the co-clerkship director for medical students

at Rowan SOM. And a lot of the students will say, they'll say, Dr. Caudill, how do you

like me to present, you know, every attending is different. And I appreciate when they ask

because every attending is different. So I tell them in this and that. But usually by

the end of the rotation, or I try to tell them, you know, look, you're going to see

a lot of different attendings and a lot of different residents and a lot of different

styles of care as a medical student, as a resident. You know, you're going to see the

good, the bad, the ugly, the excellent, whatever. What you do is you take what you like out

of all the stuff that you're seeing, all the ways you've seen it being done, all the ways

you've seen or heard the question being asked, all the styles, take what you like. You know,

as you're going through, pick up the pick out the best parts of the people that you're

working with, the phrases that they say, the way they ask a question, oh, I love how they

ask this, or I love how they do this, or I love how he did it. Take that best stuff with

you as you move on from rotation to rotation, from skill to skill, and leave the rest. And

then you'll end up with a whole lot of good stuff at the end of your training, which,

you know, I think is always a good idea.

And that's really good advice. And, you know, your other quotes are just I have like Pinterest

boards and note sections where I just collect quotes because I love quotes too. And I love

those.

Oh my god, I'm such a quotes girl. Yes.

And I think that you are doing a great job at living by them. I mean, you definitely

have that fire and you definitely are amazing. And I think you're living life right. So thank

you. With that. Thank you so much for your time. I want to make sure that the listeners

know to go to Dr. Jen Cottle.com to go to your YouTube channel to your Twitter to your

Instagram. All Dr. Jen Cottle. Yeah, my Facebook to Facebook and definitely follow her because

she has great content. And I'm a big fan of hers personally, as a friend as a mentor.

So thank you so much for for your time and what you do to inspire other people.

Well, thank you so much for interviewing me. And thank you, by the way, for being such

an amazing role model yourself to so many others. Even me. I mean, you're you know,

this is I know this is like a whole like, freaking love fest session here. But I'm just

saying like, you know, no, let's we give credit as credit is due. And I'm telling you, Chrissy,

you you're pretty badass yourself. And I love all the stuff that you're doing. So keep keep

breaking down barriers. Thank you. Thank you. And to all of our listeners, I hope that they

can get something from this time. And thank you again.

This concludes our episode of Do or Do Not. Send all inquiries, comments, suggestions

and even let us know if there's someone you want us to interview to do or do not podcast

at gmail.com. Don't forget to like us on Facebook at do or do not podcast for updates. If you

enjoyed our podcast, please share it with your classmates and administration. We have

plenty of more interviews lined up and we're excited to share them with you. This is Tianyu

Lee. Thank you guys so much for listening to Do or Do Not.