D.O. or Do Not: The Osteopathic Physician's Journey for Premed & Medical Students

Episode 38: Teresa Hubka D.O. Obstetrician & Gynecologist

March 16, 2021 Season 1 Episode 38
D.O. or Do Not: The Osteopathic Physician's Journey for Premed & Medical Students
Episode 38: Teresa Hubka D.O. Obstetrician & Gynecologist
Show Notes Transcript

Third-year osteopathic medical student Madli Vahtra is joined by her colleague, Tiffany Carlson, in speaking to Dr. Teresa Hubka, a D.O. practicing obstetrics and gynecology in Chicago. Dr. Hubka graduated from Des Moines University College of Osteopathic Medicine. She completed an internship year in New Jersey at the Atlantic City Medical Center and her residency in OB/GYN at Mercy Hospital and Medical Center in Chicago. After residency, Dr. Hubka started a private practice that subsequently grew into Comprehensive Wellness Care, a practice that specializes in the total care of women of all ages. Dr. Hubka is a clinical professor and chair of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology at Chicago College of Osteopathic Medicine. She is also the Obstetrics and Gynecology Program Director at Presence Resurrection Medical Center. We hope you enjoy this episode.

Hosted by Madli Vahtra & Tiffany Carlson
Edited by Nicholas Buskill

My name is Dr. Ian Storch. I'm a board-certified gastroenterologist and osteopathic physician,

and you are listening to DO or DO NOT. If you are interested in joining our team or

have suggestions or comments, please contact us at DoOrDoNotPodcast.com. Share our link

with your friends and like us on Apple Podcasts, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. We hope

you enjoy this episode. Hi, my name is Madly Vatra. I'm a third-year

osteopathic medical student, and you are listening to DO or DO NOT. On today's episode, my colleague

Tiffany Carlson and I will be speaking with Dr. Teresa Hupka, a DO practicing obstetrics

and gynecology in Chicago. Dr. Hupka graduated from Des Moines University College of Osteopathic

Medicine. She completed an internship year in New Jersey at the Atlantic City Medical

Center and a residency in OB-GYN at Mercy Hospital and Medical Center in Chicago. After

graduation, Dr. Hupka started a private practice which subsequently grew into comprehensive

wellness care, a practice that specializes in total care of women of all ages. Dr. Hupka

is a clinical professor and the chair of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology at

Midwestern University, Chicago College of Osteopathic Medicine. She is also the Obstetrics

and Gynecology Residency Program Director at Presence Resurrection Medical Center. We hope

you enjoy this episode. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Dr. Hupka,

for joining us today on the DO or Do Not podcast. We really appreciate your flexibility and

time to come on our show. Can you just kind of describe, I'm not sure if there's really

a normal day in OB-GYN, but can you just kind of start maybe in like how you begin your

day and then just take us through your work roles and responsibilities on a typical or

an atypical shift? Okay. Well, first of all, for sure in obstetrics

and gynecology, there is no typical day. But what I will tell you is I'll kind of highlight

a standard, I mean, it's kind of like a week for us. We go week by week because so many

different things can change. But on a typical day, I would be getting up early, getting

myself ready for the hospital to make rounds. So we like to be at the hospital by 6 a.m.

and we round with any patients that are my private patients as well as patients that

would be with the residents. And then we have what we call sign out or morning report. So

in morning report, it's where the night shift residents and students would then report to

the day team. And as faculty, we like to have more than just one individual there. So I'm

part of that team. And we would then hear the sign out from the night before to the

day shift. Now I might finish that morning report in the rounding on patients that are

my own and then travel back to my office, which is in, so in Chicago. So I go to one

hospital that is up north near the airport and come back to the Lakeview-Lincoln Park

area where I have my private practice. See my patients, various groupings of patients,

whether it be annual exams or some procedural type things, ultrasounds, non-stress tests

on obstetrical patients or whatnot. So I like to have a blend of patients. I prefer not

to have an OB day and then a gyne day. I kind of do a little blend of everything. By the

end of the day, if I don't have anything else going on, which I usually do, but then that

my day would end about 6 p.m. with finishing up patients and then being able to go home

and see family and, you know, partake in dinner and so forth. If I do have something going

on, what usually occurs is I might be running back to the hospital for a delivery. I might

be getting a call from the residents about a patient being admitted or various things,

or if I am on a shift where I cover the emergency room. For the most part, I know my patients

and my practice very well. You know, how do I say it? It works. I am a solo private practice

physician who's engaged in student and resident education and administrative duties with not

just only Midwestern University, but the American Osteopathic Association and the State Society

as well as especially college. So I like being very engaged and involved with a lot of things,

but I also want to be very engaged and involved in my own family. And so I have two children

and my husband and lots of pets and so forth, and then my direct and extended family on

both sides, my husband's and my own. So we somehow have made it all work and it seems

to be a very fun, holistic day is what I would call it. So that's kind of a typical day,

but it never is typical.

Right. It's interesting to hear that you have like a lot of different things going on. So

kind of going back to the very beginning, but when and how did you become interested

in medicine and decide that you wanted to be a doctor?

You know, I think, so my parents are pretty great people. They were kind of self-made

themselves. They both went to college and they did wonderful things and whatnot. But

my dad in particular, he's from Nebraska, he, you know, and so forth, and just always

talked to us about education is critical, education is key, the most education that

you can get always, always, you know, and you're never too young, never too old, always,

you know, go for improving and keeping yourself going. So with that kind of a background,

and also my mother being a naturalist, and let me explain, so my father from Nebraska,

my mother from San Diego, California, which is where I grew up, they, so we were all raised

in California. My dad had joined the military and then moved out to California, met my mom

and so forth. So we have, I come from a family of eight brothers and sisters, and my mother

being from California, everything was homemade, fresh. She used to make her own bread. She'd

make her own, you know, pasta. She'd make her own everything, you know, sauces. We never

had things, you know, out of, how do I say the canned goods and everything. And so interesting

is that I went to, growing up as a kid, we had an osteopathic physician as our doctor,

which I didn't really know, but I knew he was different. He was fun. He was engaged.

We'd go to the doctor as all eight kids, and my mother, because my dad was in the military

and he'd be away, and we'd all go there, and he was just like the most engaging, wonderful

physician. And he would talk to us about nutrition and health and make sure my mother was okay

because she was taking care of the kids with my father being overseas. And it was just

very, very wonderful, holistic care. Again, not knowing that he was a DO, because he was

a doctor, you know, that's, and growing up, I remember then in high school, friends of

mine wanted to be a nurse and wanted to be in education, a teacher. I loved education.

I loved teaching. I, you know, always thought that would be a cool, you know, something

to do is to educate others, and in educating others, you educate yourself. What I found

is that I really intended to be, I really wanted to be a doctor. I thought, I don't

want to be a nurse, and I think nursing is fabulous, but I want to be the leader of the

team, which is kind of like what my dad would always say, you know, go be the best you can

be, you know, always look for the, the how you can help others and be the best you can

be. So, so I started looking into schools and everything, and I went to UC Davis, and

at that time, UC Davis for college. So from high school to college, went away to within

the UC system from San Diego up to Northern California. Again, very holistic, you know,

farm country, wonderful, being very, very, how do I say, more naturalistic, and always

looking at nutrition. I studied nutrition science, clinical nutrition, biochemistry,

and loved that aspect of, of what medicine, or when I say medicine, what, what knowing

about the body and things that you could do with the body naturally. So kind of the philosophy

of osteopathic medicine just kind of fit all along. What was interesting though, not knowing

it applied to UC San Francisco, because I knew the UC system, and in getting accepted,

that was wonderful, but I then went after graduation, had a horrible accident. It's

interesting, but anyway, a particular accident that then I ended up in the hospital and could

not start my first year at UC San Francisco. UC San Francisco would not hold the spot,

which was interesting. And they just told me to reapply the next year. So that was kind

of very disappointing. And I thought, wow, you know, why would they not hold the spot?

So from there, I went on to get my master's degree and did it in biochemistry and clinical

nutrition and education. So I was teaching and I taught at the school in California,

the osteopathic school in California, which is funny. And I taught them biochemistry and

clinical nutrition. And that's when I thought, again, I want to be the doctor. I want to

be more than, you know, not more, but I mean, I'm just saying I wanted to be the physician.

I wanted to be the doctor. So I met a physician, Lee Rice, who then he's a DO and he encouraged

me to apply to osteopathic school. And I remember being very open saying, you know, again, not

knowing that. And then I found out that my my own physician was a DO, that all my life

from that accident, the doctors that helped me at UCLA were DOs. And it was funny. California

is filled with DOs. But, you know, again, doing various things and and various offerings.

So that's how I applied to, again, various schools still doing both osteopathic and allopathic

schools. Baylor University, Duke University, George Washington in D.C. and all this stuff.

But what I found was what really felt good was when I interviewed at the osteopathic

schools, there was more interest in who I was and what what I wanted to do and kind

of like the practice that I wanted. And and so anyway, I ended up at Des Moines University,

loved it and have not looked back ever since. No no struggles or anything with being a DO.

So anyway, I'm very proud to be a DO and feel like I the path was interesting, but certainly

the right path for me.

So you mentioned going to UC Davis, you know, it's a big ag school in California. Actually,

my great grandfather won an FFA competition there for poultry. So it's kind of near and

dear to my heart. But can you just kind of talk about your experience in the nutrition

science and then your teaching experience and how that's kind of that's informed you

because, you know, it wasn't in undergraduate that you rediscovered osteopathic school,

but you were doing some of the holistic things like diet and teaching people to be in charge

of their health.

Right. Well, in fact, what was interesting is that I certainly was so fascinated based

on my background with my family, my mother, to doing everything very holistic and natural.

And I am a vegan from the get go and now, but have since become a vegetarian to incorporating

some dairy products. So anyway, so I'm a vegetarian, never ever have eaten any animal products

other than dairy.

When said, my mother way back when said, well, in order for you to do this and be healthy.

And again, it was the DO or the osteopathic doctor that said, you know, kind of like leave

her alone as a kid. She can do it. She can be healthy as a vegetarian or as a vegan back

then. And my mother said, well, you have to read about it. You have to kind of prove it

to us. My father being a farm boy, right? Who, you know, meat, potatoes and, you know,

all those wonderful vegetables and things like that. So anyway, at UC Davis, yeah, I

was, you know, studying everything I could about clinical nutrition and, or I should

say basic nutrition, you know, just that. And with biochemistry to me, that was fascinating

how you actually had the biology of the body, the biochemical science of food and put that

all together and how you could make someone healthy or by what we eat, not healthy. And

then I like to incorporate fitness and movement and all of those things. So kind of pulling

all that together.

When I finished, like I said, I went to UCLA and I wrote a grant to help teach students

or kids, you know, it was called the NET Nutrition Education Task Force that then we brought

and put together a nutrition package that you could teach kids from the get-go how to

eat healthy, although they had different socioeconomic backgrounds and how this could make them aware

of what was needed to keep your health or improve your health. If you were diabetic,

you know, how you could take charge of that and improve it and make it better and not,

you know, not be afraid of it or whatever. So little by little learning that through

college and then into grad school and, you know, still always thinking about how can

I apply this? I mean, I love to teach it. Now I really want to apply it. And so I went

to a, in a way, what would I say, in a way program at Bridgeport, Connecticut, where

I did my research in food allergies and learned a lot about celiac disease and so forth. And

it was kind of fun that I diagnosed, when I say diagnosed, I was not a fisherman, but

as a registered dietitian and working in one of the school systems, I was able to identify

for the assistant principal that he had what appeared clearly to me a gluten intolerance

and was losing all this weight and was, you know, getting very sick and everything. So

that was when I thought, wow, I mean, and it was confirmed by his doctor who they could

not find what was wrong for the longest time. They weren't thinking of it was something

just in his diet. And, oh, and I don't know why I'm not gonna, you know, that was way

back when. And, and so I just put together a diet plan for him. And, and he got better,

got stronger, started gaining weight again. I mean, this was a man that was probably in

the 200 pounds, nice build, who then went down to like in the 120, you know, wow, yeah,

that was pretty significant. So that's when I said, you know, I felt like it, like I said,

I identified it, but I was like, I, I diagnosed something and got a treatment. And, you know,

so again, it got me back into, I want, I do want to educate. I love working in the schools.

I love working with the teachers. I love working with the students, but I really want to be

the doctor, you know, so kind of, again, led me back into, I want to go to medical school.

Yeah. So this kind of nutritional education and training and nutrition sounds like it

was a big part of your life before medical school. But did you bring any of that to medical

school? Like, did you do any research while you were in medical school or any other extracurriculars

during your time there? Yeah, I was able to, like I said, it was interesting

that the curriculum at the California school at that time comps, so the California Osteopathic

Medical College, you know, did not have nutrition. What they had was biochemistry, you know,

and if you look at your curriculum, do we have nutrition in our curriculum? So it wasn't

really taught and they, that's when they brought me in. So that was quite fun to teach the

students. The one reason why I will say I didn't apply to that school is because one

year I'm their teacher, the next year I'd be their underclassman, you know, not real

good. But what was fun is when I went to Des Moines, same type of thing. I, you know, we

had biochemistry, we had physiology, we had, you know, micro, we had all those wonderful

things, pharmacology, but they didn't have nutrition. So I just offered that in any of

these courses, you know, if you want me to, you know, add a little bit, you know, a little

lecture here or there, or just, you know, provide for the class. And so, yeah, we used

to have class notes. I know it's so long ago, you guys would never even understand this,

but it's a note pool. And note pool was where one student took the notes of the day and

they were typed up and then put into our little files so that, and you had to buy it, you

know, so that you could either take your own notes or do note pool. But it was always really

good. So I contributed the nutrition components to note pool. And yeah, the other thing is

with nutrition, you have to stay on track. You can't, you know, it doesn't, it's, you

have to always constantly learn and, and, you know, there's always, you know, everyone

wants to take each component apart. And I'm like, well, that's not how we're built. We're

not built, you know, vitamin C alone isn't every component. There's, you know, rose hips

and you know, I mean, there's so many components that we can't take, you know, people that

want to take every single nutrient separate. I don't always believe that's the best, you

know, so always clean up with it, reading more, researching more and to understand it

so that we can apply it is I think the best way to go.

So at Des Moines, were there any specific people that you met there that you remember

that have like helped you or still your colleagues to this day?

I have quite a few and they're all, I mean, a lot of them are here in Chicago. You know,

you'll see when you, as you're going through school, the friends you make are lifelong

friends. I mean, I get it that out of a class of 200, you know, you can't have lifelong

friends of all of them, but yeah, there are key people. Quite a few came to Chicago because

it's so close to Des Moines and some are in different parts of the country. But yes, we're

very close and very, you know, keep up whenever there's a alumni reunion or even just any

type of Facebook type thing or social media. We do touch base. It's also quite fun that

even I might not have met certain people, but now that link of Des Moines, you see someone

that's from there, you know, and say, I mean, it's like that connects you as well. You know,

you might be in a different city doing a rotation and that's the one thing about Des Moines.

We had to obtain our own third and fourth year rotations. The school would set up a

couple, but they gave us opportunity to set up others so you could be in a different city.

And if you saw a Des Moines patch on someone's arm, it was like your family, you know? Yeah.

I feel the same way when I see like my fellow students like in our hospitals, you know,

because Midwestern has so many different rotation sites. Exactly. Exactly. It's quite fun. So

yeah, also thankful we don't have to set up our own. Yes. Yes, I know. I know. I always feel like

that. I'm like, you guys are so lucky. You know, we do a lot of work for you, you know, just because

it makes them that's one more thing or one less thing for you to worry about. Exactly. So how did

you ultimately end up deciding on your specialty? Well, I think like I said, when I taught in

various capacities, the one that really touched me the most was teaching in, it's going to sound

funny, but elementary schools because I was working with, I was special subjects. So I wasn't,

you know, your standard homeroom teacher, whatever. I taught eighth graders and all the way up to high

school. And I found that I could impact those young women the most, whether it be at one point,

I remember I had to teach the, what now is called sex ed, but at that time it was life balance or

something. I forget what they called it, but they could never, for parents, you didn't put that term

sex, you know, in there. So I'm teaching these courses and I saw, you know, these young women,

young girls, very impressionable and just trying to feel good about themselves, you know,

and, or trying to figure out themselves and trying to be, to fit in and some didn't fit in

and some were the popular ones and some, you know, just that, that kind of hierarchy that occurs in

that time of life. And I thought if there's any way that I can help impact them. And it was just

so amazing because years later I'd be in, you know, a social setting and I'd hear, they'd always call

me Ms. Hupka, you know, and I'd hear Ms. Hupka, you know, now I'm doing this or that. And I would

just love it because, you know, or I remember your, your project that we did on, on nutrition. It

really impacted me, you know, I mean, they didn't use that analogy, but it made me feel so good that

I could help make a difference in their life. So when I first started in medical school, I thought,

because I, I had an interesting, I think I told you about Dr. Lee Rice, and I don't mean to use

particular names, but anyway, I worked as a dietitian in San Diego and as an independent

dietitian, working with people, teaching them how to eat and cook and balance their, their meals.

And then he offered me a position with the San Diego Sports Medicine Center. So I was doing

kind of the nutrition and fitness along with a whole team of individuals. And he's, he's a D.O.,

and so he's the one that said, you know, consider Des Moines and, and consider any of the schools,

but consider osteopathic medicine. So when going, I thought when I first started medical school,

I thought I want to do sports medicine. I think I want to do any route to sports medicine, maybe

women's sports, you know, maybe, you know, whatnot, because I worked with a lot of women athletes,

you know, runners and tennis players. And, you know, cause he had the San Diego Sports Medicine

Center. And so I thought that's what I wanted to do, but I realized that, you know, and I should

say dancers and dance was my thing, you know, I was in ballet and in modern dance and jazz. So

I thought that that's what I'd like to do. But I was, I realized that that wasn't enough of their

life, if I could say that. And so I, I didn't really think that the sports medicine was me.

I, I don't want to say bounced around, but I kind of loved everything. I loved ER, I loved ER,

because I thought, wow, you can kind of find it and fix it real quick, you know, problem for me

with ER was that I didn't know the follow through. Like I'd be on the phone calling about how Mr.

Jones was that came in with the chest pain and was it a heart attack or what was it, you know,

and they'd always go, hop off the phone, get to the next patient. So to be followed through was very

important. So I kept kind of searching, looking, you know, through all my rotations. And I really

thought, I found that I really loved my, my women's health OB-GYN experience that I had, and it was out

in, in New Jersey. And the, I was on a rotation. It was just great because the day was different.

Everything, every day was different. You'd, you'd be in the labor and delivery unit delivering a baby.

Then when you're done there and, and watching, you know, the eyes of the dad or the, the patient

as she delivers, you know, her, her first or her, you know, it wouldn't matter. But moving on then

from there, going to the office and, and kind of talking to the patients and getting to know them

and having that relationship. And then the next day, maybe, or even later on being in the OR.

And I love, I love doing surgery. I love doing things with my hands and, you know, so that kind

of thing started me thinking, I, you know, women's health and OB-GYNing. And so from there, I really

never looked back. I just, I really, really loved OB-GYNing. That's, that's, that fit me the most.

The variety, you know, being a surgeon, being able to develop those relationships at key moments in

a woman's life. Part of the family, you know, I mean, I, you know, that's really, really neat

to have patients remember you and say, you know, this person delivered my child or whatever,

in fact, really funny, but the other day, a patient of mine came in with her daughter and her daughter

was just bright eyed and everything. And I, and I looked, I said, you have the same eyes as your

mother. And she goes, yep, yep. She goes, and Dr. Hupka, you delivered me. And I said, I know I did.

I thought so. And then she, she was looking at me and she's like, and I want to apply to medical

school because I heard so. So I was like, really? You know, so, you know, I was like,

really? You know, so I told her, I said, you know, you're going to come in and shadow in my office

when you can, you know, cause she's in, uh, still in college, but it was so funny. I'm thinking,

wow, that's that to me, what an impact on someone's life. Again, you know, mom brings

her daughter in and, um, you know, and I delivered her and that's been a lot of what I love. I love

the relationships. I love the memories. You know, I deal with a lot of the husbands or the,

or the partners or the parents of this person's life. And so to me, making a difference in

someone's life is what really brought me to OB-GYN. So you, you did a, I guess, a traditional

osteopathic internship in New Jersey. Once you decided that OB-GYN was your specialty of choice,

how did you go about applying to residencies and how did you, how did you ultimately pick your

program? And then sorry to have like a third question, but do you think it was more difficult

as an osteopathic physician? Well, first of all, now, absolutely not. Absolutely not. Okay.

And my path was a very strange one. So I really kind of, I don't think anyone would have this

path, but I'll tell you why. And it's going to sound strange, but because it's a full circle.

So when I was at Des Moines and in my time, we had, we did the osteopathic internships,

which I still think were so, so valuable to the growth of the doctor, because it gave you

that extra year to, to learn about everything and then make your decision. So I got my first

internship when I say first, my internship was literally, if you could believe this was with

Chicago osteopathic, but it was 75 interns from all over the country were in this program.

And I like, and I, I know one of your questions is big, small and whatnot. I do like more intimate,

small personable programs. So 75 interns, I thought I'm never going to know any of them.

If we're working hours and hours in a day, and I, I need that, that I need that, you know, so

these are contracts, the way it used to be when you went through the match, you matched and you

signed a contract. Well, before I signed it, I, I questioned it. I talked to some friends of mine,

and I talked to the American Osteopathic Association because that at the time was who held

who held those contracts. And I saw that there was a program open on the East coast, which was

a newer osteopathic program and they had 12 interns versus 75. I contacted them. They said,

yes, they would take me. And so I had to get out of one offer, you know, so did not sign the contract

with Chicago osteopathic. And I don't know if this is good to be known, but anyway,

now that I think about it, this is public, but, but it's known. So, so when I called Chicago,

you know, that that's, it's hard, but I said, I really would like to be able to go to this other

program. And I had to get permission and, you know, and so they released me. Okay. And then I

started the internship and it was fabulous. Loved it. It was just the best off the charts. I,

because each month, 12 interns, each month we were, each person was on a rotation. So I was

doing Peds. The other intern was doing OB. The next intern was doing ER. And we all talked like,

Hey, you know, as we rotated around, I'd say, Hey, when you come on to Peds, these are things

you need to know. This is what you need to do. And so we all developed kind of like this wonderful

comradery and program curriculum for the next one. And cause we were really the third class. Okay.

Of this new internship. From there, I knew I wanted OB and I looked at various programs,

but I was offered the New Jersey program. And that seemed like a real simple, easy thing,

right? Just stay in Jersey and take that osteopathic OB-GYN program, which was really well recognized.

You know, it was one of the best, but for me, and this is kind of crazy, but I was

dating someone in Chicago. So four years, I would have to do four years in New Jersey

and keep, you know, going back and forth, you know, Chicago and so forth. So I then did the

total opposite, which was went to the program there that offered me a position and said,

and I didn't have anything in hand, you know, whereas with the internship, I had

the Jersey program in hand and it was kind of easy to let go of the Chicago. So now I'm reversing it

and I'm saying to New Jersey, you know, I thank you for your offer before I sign a contract.

I think I want to look in Chicago and they're, they literally said to me, you're foolish.

Do you have a, do you have a program? And I said, well, I don't. And I know you're a stellar,

phenomenal osteopathic program, truly one of the, you know, one of the top three in the country,

you know, and at that time it was Chicago, it was Botsford in, in Michigan and then Jersey.

And, and these were great programs, really excellent, but I turned them down and had nothing

because at that time there were two matches, right? There was the osteopathic match and then

there was allopathic or MD match. So I had nothing. And if you think about this, I was an unknown

entity in the ACGME world. And on top of that, it looked like I just ruined my career in the

osteopathic world because I was leaving, you know, and going to foreign territory. So you would think

that there would be no hope for me ever getting a residency ever anywhere. And, you know, I thought

I was going to be blackballed from the AOA, but, you know, keeping ties and keeping, you know,

through my internship, I was still involved with what now would be considered like the

Bell, the Bureau of Emerging Leaders. But, you know, I was very engaged in AOA, very engaged in

AOA as a student, as a resident or intern and as a resident. So here's what happens is I, they,

they had asked me, so what's going on? And I said, why, why would you let go of this osteopathic

residency for nothing? And I said, well, it was kind of funny, but, you know, I said, well, you

know, I've got this, this boyfriend and they're like, boyfriend, you know, you mean he hasn't put

a ring on it yet? Like it's not more official. And I'm like, I know, I just have to trust, I have to

go with my heart, you know? And they literally, it was very nice of them because they literally said we,

you know, this was like the godfather of OB-GYN was out there. I mean, these doctors were truly the

lead of ACOOG and everything. They were, it was, it was New Jersey. And so I remember going, well,

I'm, I guess I just, you know, hung up my career, but we'll see what I can do. And I just really kind

of went forward and trusted. And I looked, I got an offer at UC Davis for a second year spot. That

was fabulous, right? UC Davis, my alma mater. So talk about DO being any, any problems? Absolutely

not. Absolutely. I mean, I had no problems back then as a DO applying back to my own alma mater.

And they were going to recognize my internship and give me a second year spot,

but that would still be, that'd be even further from Chicago than New Jersey was. So I knew that

wasn't going to be the right fit. And what I did was I came and interviewed at, at the time Cook

County was a good program here in Chicago. Michael Reese existed. It now doesn't. Mercy Hospital.

And I literally just interviewed all through Chicago and got accepted to Mercy. And what felt

good about Mercy is there was a DO in just about every year. And I was, I was the DO in the first

year class. So I did a, you know, a year over, that's okay. I didn't mind. I wanted to be an

OB-GYN, but I loved that Mercy, my chief resident was, you know, a DO and the second, the third year

third year who then became the chief resident was a DO. And the my, what would I say that the,

at that time, my second year class, no DOs, but very much aware of what DOs were. And then I was

the DO in the first year class. So this program really knew the quality of DOs.

And oddly enough, each and every year, the DO, I'm not saying that just because we were a DO,

but we showed our leadership capabilities, which is what was so different about our training,

is that we were leaders. And that's, you know, because we engaged from the get-go in professional

societies and professionalism. So that's what I think, you know, was so wonderful about my

training. And although it was ACGME, which back then we were not one, we were two systems,

but what I did then is I went back to the AOA and in my first year, got the AOA to approve my

training and got my two chiefs, meaning the fourth year chief and the third year eventual chief,

I got their training approved by the AOA. So, and they are out in practice to this day in Chicago

and, you know, fabulous doctors, but they are both AOA and ACGME approved.

Wow. It sounds like you're surrounded by a lot of phenomenal DO physicians in

your residency training. So I'm curious, what was your proudest moment during your education as a DO?

Well, I would say that exactly that, that, you know, it's funny. So I was the chief when I,

when I became the chief resident. So now I'm a fourth year. That was great. And you know,

what I love is that then I was going to join the staff graduating. I was going to join

the staff of Mercy Hospital. It was quite funny is that they said I had been on all their committees,

you know, because when you're a chief resident, you're invited to, you know, the quality committee

the credentials committee, this committee, that, and so the one committee you have to sit in front

of when you join a medical staff is the credentials committee. So I had to stand before them and,

and they looked at me and they said, oh, you know, you're a DO. You can't be on the medical

staff because our bylaws say that only MDs. And I, I remember just like batting my eyes like, what?

I've been on these committees. I've done this. I've done that. You have DOs throughout the entire

medical staff. If you don't know that. So I said, you're going to have to change the bylaws, right?

Because that's the right thing to do, not just to turn it off, but to change it. And they did. So

that's one proud moment, but that really isn't my proudest. I'm just saying that, that when you help

people understand what they, what they don't recognize or what they don't know. And so they

had been accepting DOs for years as residents, as fellows, as on the medical staff, but for some

reason, my year, they, you know, someone was like, let's open those bylaws, you know? So that's one.

I certainly proud was that all along I've been in leadership roles. And I think everyone in the

DO has that opportunity because like I said, we're trained to, to excel, to, to think as leaders.

And so, yes, I was chief resident, I think in my, in my last year as a chief resident and, and

transitioning into my first year as I was asked to be the assistant program director, because you

couldn't be a program director unless you were five years out in practice. So, but of Mercy

hospitals residency, that was cool. Cause I learned so much, you know, on how to run a program. But

that year I became the president of the Illinois osteopathic medical society. And then just a

couple of years after that, I became the first female to be the AOF, the foundation of the

president that they, you know, before Dr. Nichols became the AOA president. So I was the first female

in a national position to become the president of a society like the American osteopathic

foundation. And then the year after Dr. Nichols became president of the AOA. So we're like, yes,

but, you know, then also becoming president of ACOG. So I was the first female in a national

foundation of ACOG. So what I'm saying is proud moments are leadership roles for me where, you

know, I'm thinking to myself, I wanted to make a difference and I want to be a doctor. Okay. But I

knew I didn't want to just be a doctor. And that's why I want to be a DO. And, and being a DO, there

is no, I don't feel there's less of a chance. I feel there's more of a chance because you stand

out. You know, you're unique and you have added, you know, how do I say a full benefits. And so,

but it's where you take it, right? It's, it's what you do with it. You know, so, so I think it's a,

that's a plus. I like being, how do I say a big fish in a, in a small pond, but I also like having

the ripples impact so many. So you talk about getting that job and, you know, asking for what

you want and then being on staff at Mercy. When did you transition to running your own private

practice? That seems almost an anomaly today. I mean, we hear about direct primary care,

but here you are in very litigious state running your own practice.

Right. So when I was finishing residency, I looked everywhere. Certainly I was, I mean,

a comical now I'm, I'm now married and I, my husband who's from Chicago says, oh, we'll go

wherever you, wherever you need to go. Okay. So I'm looking in California cause I want to go home.

I'm looking everywhere for jobs, right? I'm, I'm in my fourth year and I'm looking and that's when

the program director and department chair, he was one in the same. He's like, Hey, you know, I can

give you, you know, I'd love to have the help. You are a great chief. You know, you, you made a

difference. I'd love to have the help and you know, I'll teach you everything you need to know. And

I'm like, huh, that's good. And, you know, I kind of like to be my own boss, you know, so I'm

thinking, all right, well, let me look in Chicago for places. And it, it just wasn't interesting. I,

I didn't want to be a typical doc, you know, how do I say? So I literally, my husband, I've, um,

took out a loan and we looked and looked and looked and I said, I want to open my own practice.

So I did it right out of residency. Most of the doctors that trained me were in private practices

and they just helped each other. They, they cross covered. So it'd be like if someone who had dinner

with his wife, you know, or, or theater tickets, you know, I mean, you know, cause everyone back

then, I mean, it was like, they went to the opera, they did this, that, so if they had that, they,

you know, then the in-house doc would cover for them while they were, you know, having, you know,

family time and, and everyone worked together and no one took patients from each other and no one,

you know, it was just very nice, very friendly. So I, I thought, you know, I could do that,

I think. And there were some younger doctors, you know, I mean, one year, two years ahead that they

were employed by the hospital. And so I thought, well, if I'm the program director and I got a

small little stipend salary, whatever, and I had a, it was where I could work in a particular

clinic. So I thought, Hey, I can work in the residence clinic and do their, the schedule for

the faculty. And that was one of the things that the program director wanted me to do as the

assistant program director. So I ran the residence clinic and then I opened my own practice. So that

little bit of money that I got from being assistant program director and the director of the clinic

helped me with a little bit of a private loan, opened my practice and I opened it on bare bones.

I asked the hospital to help me train my staff. And, you know, I had three people, it was me,

my front office person and my back office person, and three of us open, you know, we opened the

practice. I remember day one, I have my brand new, you know, codon that has Dr. Hupka and, you know,

I'm all proud and, you know, starched and everything. And I'm sitting there and my staff

has their uniforms on. And literally, I think we had one patient, I thought, Oh my God, I'm going

to die. This is all I've got, you know. And, you know, I asked the hospital to help me with

advertising and they were just very happy to have me. So yes, I got some help, absolutely. But what

I also did in opening my practice is I did something different. I went out to DePaul

University and I sat in their student lounge and I had Ask the Doc, you know, just Ask the Doc.

You can do it as a group, you can do it as an individual, you know, and whatever you need.

Eventually, I became the team, it's kind of funny, going back to sports medicine, the team doc,

the team physician for the women's basketball team. I'm like, what do I know about basketball?

Women's health. And I had more women coming to me for issues that were very interesting.

And, you know, it worked within my nutrition background from before. And so, that then,

they then became my private patients. And that group, that just kept growing. I went to restaurants,

wonderful restaurants in the Lincoln Park area. And the restaurants were very nice. They said,

Yes, you can have a cocktail hour before dinner and you can do a little

free, but, you know, kind of a discussion. So, I had one about menopause, you know, because I thought,

well, that's kind of hopefully appropriate. And then I, so I just did lectures around the city.

And that's how I, I mean, free, but, you know, people came and then they were like,

what's your name? Where are you? Where, you know, and by then I was just busy. I mean, I was,

you know, very busy in practice, you know what I mean? That's how I grew it. So, it was not easy,

you know, like from day one opening with one or so patients to, you know, having a nice grouping

of patients, but feeling like I'm in charge. It's my practice. And I, I initially, because I didn't

have kids at the time, you know, first year in practice, I worked ridiculously hard. And I

I worked ridiculous hours. I worked, you know, Monday through Sunday, well, Monday through

Saturday, doing surgery, whatever day I could. So, I didn't have a surgical day. And I would work

long hours. I'd be at the office at 11 o'clock night doing, you know, things, you know, charts,

not patients, but charts or whatever. And, you know, planning lectures for the next day and,

and staying involved, but really working hard because that's what grew the practice.

By the time I'd been next number of years in practice, and then took on the position of,

you know, five years in practice, you can be a program director and you can be, you know,

get engaged. And that's when Dr. Nichols asked me to, you know, come in as department chair and

program director of Midwestern, which was really comical because, you know, one point I'd asked

Midwestern, you know, would you, could I be a resident? Remember that I had to Chicago,

they're like, Oh, no, you didn't do your internship here. So, you know, so anyway, but,

but it was, it was, like I said, you know, just multitasking, doing many things, staying engaged,

staying involved. And by the time I had, you know, my first child, that's when I said, now I need

some family time. And, but what was really great is my patients knew me as a person. And they were

very respectful when I would say any medication refills, they have to be Monday through Friday

between this and this, do not call me on Saturday for your refills. And they, you know, when I said,

this is how it will be, you know, and what I mean by that is because they knew that I was there for

them. So they wanted me to be able to have the family life that I wanted for them as well, you

know. So, and that's kind of how I built it. You know, it's been great. It's been, is it easy?

Sometimes no, because I'm the only one, but I also have developed great friendships with other

doctors. And just like, you know, I've done in the past with, with Mercy, you know, Mercy was the

grouping. Now I know Mercy's, the hospital may be closing, but the doctors there were so collaborative

and so helpful. So those are still some of my, you know, dearest, dearest friends. And one of them

was my trainer. And now he, we back each other up. So if I need to go out of town or, or whatnot,

and, and I also am very honest with my patients. I'll say, you know, during this month, I've got a

lot of responsibilities. And, you know, if you're, if, if you're due that month, I cannot guarantee

that I would be able to deliver you. So maybe you want someone else. And, and usually the patients

say, no, that's okay. I'll, I'll, I'll chance it. I'll chance having your covering position and I'll

hopefully get you, you know, that type of thing. So, so I've been very lucky and rarely missed a

delivery. Yeah. So I do kind of want to touch a little bit on that, like the fact that, you know,

we can't predict when babies come and OB-GYN kind of has a reputation for a very difficult

call and difficult schedule. Do you feel like that has gotten better over the years? And should this

way medical students who think of pursuing OB-GYN as their specialty?

I would say this, you can do with it. Nowadays, whatever you want,

of women's health and OB-GYN is so, so unique in that, you know, it's, it's actually a, a true

career specialty because when you first start, you want to, you can do everything. OB-GYN, you know,

OB, so it's office-based, hospital-based, you know, take every patient, run like crazy, you know,

be up at 3 a.m. and, you know, seeing them and rounding and all that type of stuff. You know,

running and all that type of stuff. And as well as the gyne, office-based gyne, office-based

procedures, and then hospital-based gyne and ER calls and so forth. So when you first are starting,

that's how you build your practice. But here's what's different and unique is that, you know,

you can be employed by a hospital. You can be in a large group employed by a private entity.

You can be academic, truly just completely academic and not clinical or, or work in an academic

clinic where you are, you know, an academic hospital-based clinic where you're in a hospital

and, and you see their, you know, the patients, you know, patients don't feel that they're part,

that they belong to a system, they belong to the doctor. Do you know what I'm saying? I know the

systems think, you know, they're the Northwestern patient. Well, no, they're really Dr. X's patient

who works for Northwestern. You can do all that. As you go through your career, you can change and

say, I want less OB and more gyne. I want more surgery or I want more office space. So that's

one thing. It's a career building specialty. You can, you can do it for a lifetime. I mean,

and you don't have to either. So the doctors that I have on is faculty and I, I, I smile because I,

we have so many unique, you know, I'm, I'm the dinosaur. Okay. I do it all. I enjoy it all.

And I'm solo. Okay. But I have wonderful, you know, support and, and friends that work with me

as far as, as I said, but, but here's the reality. Part of my faculty for Midwestern, I have one that

is a physician that did it all. Then he went into gyne only and now he's complete academia. Okay.

That's all he is. He works with me for the students and I have another one who's an amazing surgeon.

And so he's OB, he's mid-career, well, he's early career and he is just an amazing surgeon. So he's

doing more of the surgical stuff and he's moved up in the ranks. And again, there's the DO,

they're all DOs, but he has moved up in the ranks of leadership. So he's like the minimally invasive

and robotic surgeon, kind of the chair or the lead on that and is developing the program for the

program for the hospital that he works for, but he is employed. There's, I have another one that is

in a group practice who is, does OB gyne, but he's in a group practice, gets his time off when he

needs it. I have another faculty member who is, has three kids, wants time with kids and she is

now locum tenants and a hospitalist when she wants, when she wants, so she can do a shift, not do a

shift. And so she calls her schedule, but when you do locum tenants, they send you to X hospital and

you work for a couple of weeks at that hospital helping out and then you move on to another.

And that fits her. She's done practice for a little bit and now she's doing this. Very,

very happy, very, very, you know, happy with her life. And then the other one that I'm thinking

faculty wise was private solo practice actually came from where I trained. He was my chief resident

and he now just sold his practice and is employed until he then, so he's more of the

mid to late career and he's, he's got, you'll meet him when you do, when you guys are in your third

year, but he has 10 children. So he's had a wonderful family life, you know, but he,

you know, which is important to all of us. And yet he loves OB gyne and that's where he is in his

career. So all of us do things very uniquely different. And that's what I think what's so

beautiful about OB gyne. You can do so many different things with it. It's not the standard

and it's what do you want and what phase of life you in. So you mentioned a lot of things about

leadership and some of the positions. And I know you mentioned Dr. Nichols and she's actually

has been on an earlier episode of our podcast. Can you talk about your leadership experience

and then maybe put a short plug in for the Costum Institute? Oh, gosh, yeah. A short,

the Costum Institute. They're amazing. So wonderful Dr. Nichols from the get go. She was,

she's a mentor of mine because it was Dr. Nichols. Here I am from Des Moines University. Here I am

in Chicago, Illinois, doing my own little thing, working at Mercy Hospital as the assistant program

director and just loving life and whatever. And we knew each other from the Illinois Osteopathic

Medical Society and the AOA, but here she does, she knocks on my door and says, hey, what are you

doing? How would you like to start working for Midwestern and for the Department of OB Gyne,

which at the time the department chair and program director, one person did both roles

residency program director and department chair. He was ill and also kind of paring down the

program. And so she's like, I'd like to build it again. And I'd like to, and I see opportunity

and how would you like this? So that was, you know, Karen, Dr. Nichols giving me the biggest

opportunity in my life because that's what I like to do. I like to build. So there you go.

There's a leadership role she gave me. She just offered and I'm like, well, let me check it out.

Cause I'm in private practice. How am I going to do this with that? And, you know, how do I do it

all? And of course, you know, I always say, ask a busy person if you need something to do, because

they know how to multitask. So that's what I did was just shift things around, do this or that.

And then what do you know on now department chair and program director of the residency of which

it was, you know, it always was, it was one of the, like I said, the top three programs in the

country. You know, Michigan had one Illinois had one and Jersey, those are the top three, but we

had many in the other States. It's just that those, you know, so many in Michigan, many in Jersey,

but the particular names were very stellar. Well, I was like, I get the chance to build this program.

She gave me the opportunity and I want to make it put its face on the map again, cause it was well

before me. It was, you know, a top notch program that was then declining. So that was the leadership

role that just opened my, you know, just, just gave me the pathway to do this. So what do you know is

that I took that on from there though, I think just like I said, staying involved with the AOA,

staying involved with state association and especially college that I moved up in those ranks

with the AOF and the mentors that brought me along, you know, what I love is you then mentor others,

you know, so you keep it going. You keep, keep your path going by helping others in that path. So

again, working with ACOOG and becoming the president, moving up the ranks and becoming the

president. And, you know, as I said, the state association and staying engaged. So I think that

with leadership, the most important thing is I always say that I think our training as DOs

is to remain active and involved with, with our profession and, and keep your, your hands,

you know, kind of widespread and open for opportunity. And that's how you get these

leadership roles. It's because, you know, you're, you're open and ready and, and have ideas and

that's what we all want is just new ways to do things. And, you know, so I think opportunity

came and, and I was ready for it. So, you know, and I, I think I'm very thankful for, you know,

the mentors that I've had from my, my parents to certainly Dr. Nichols and, you know, there was a

DO OB-GYN way back when that has since passed, but she was such an amazing woman that could do it

all. And that was Millicent T. Campbell, who, who taught me how to do OMT more, you know, so much

that she integrated it into her practice on a regular basis, which is the other thing that,

you know, I'm proud to be a DO. I'm proud to utilize the skills that we have and, and make

this a holistic, complete care to our patients.

I'm going to switch gears here a little bit and ask some more personal questions, if that's okay.

I know this can be a little awkward or difficult to talk about, but can I ask, how did you

finance your medical education? And do you have any advice for current students regarding the

cost of medical school and perhaps even residency or like, you know, living expenses and residency?

Well, I knew that initially my first year at Des Moines, it's odd, but I got a scholarship.

And, you know, I think about that now, I don't think people get scholarships. I mean, I'm not

saying that I was unique. I'm saying that back then they, they gave scholarships to encourage

people to come or to, to, to not be afraid. And so I got a scholarship, but I remember I owned a

business, you know, I was all, I had my own nutrition and, and I was a registered physician

and I owned my own business. So I sold my business, which I laugh because the amount was so nominal.

But back then I was like, wow, that's a lot of money. So I thought, okay, that's the money I'm

going to live on. And it, and it wasn't much, but I realized, you know, my big thing was I, I realized

I didn't need a lot of what I used to have. You know, I didn't need the big car. I didn't need,

you know, I just pared down is what I'm saying. And I was living in Iowa versus California. So

that was, now Chicago's different, you know, so, so it's difficult. And I, I would think that one,

you know, the national health, that's what I did. I also did the national health service loan when

I, and at Des Moines, unfortunately in my era, we, we did have a big whoops. And what I mean by that

is, so you get the scholarship the first year and then they kind of don't give it to you in the next

year because now they need to give it to first year. So, so then as I was moving up the ranks of

student council president of Des Moines, I, you know, was like, oh my gosh, we've got to help our

students get loans or people, you know. So there was a bank called Valley National that just

really, you know, kind of killed us because they gave us horrible rates and it was a sham,

but that's what happened to us. So, so most people think, wow, you know, school didn't cost that

much in your years. Well, what it did is it, it left us with in debt at, at, in my time at 300 of,

you know, so 300 plus debt, you know, after, after really only paying for three years out of four.

So that's, that's kind of steep, you know, and that's what you guys are coming out with 250 to

what, $300,000 debt, you know. It's difficult, but I would say this. I know that there are ways,

one, that you can help yourself through that with either the loans that then have to be reimbursed

either the loans that then have to be repaid, but watch your interest or, and I, you know,

I think back, my dad was military. I never went military, but God, there's nothing wrong with it.

I mean, I think they get the best education. They get the residency spots that they need

and they don't have to, it's not a lifetime career unless you want it to be a lifetime career, but

it's, it is a wonderful training. So that's another option. I'm not saying everyone wants to be

military, but also I think that trying to get, I kind of, when I think about this, there are ways

to piecemeal, you know, one of my, one of my classmates did her education. Now she was from

Nebraska, so she was from Nebraska and her city wanted to make sure she came back. And so they

actually helped finance her school education. So there, there are ways, I get it, that you,

you basically just go into debt. You really do. But to me it's, it is worth it because you can

somehow eventually pay it off. Every year I watch, not every year, but periodically I see

people celebrating, hey, I just paid off my school loan of 300, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know,

so that's great, you know, but, but I still know doctors that still have loans from way back when

because it's nearly impossible. So I keep saying there are ways to work through it and to not

feel burdened because I think that you got to live and you got to just don't live excessive,

you know, you think that like, oh, go out and get the big car and get the, you know, the new house

and get all this stuff. It's like, stop, slow down. You don't need to do that. You need to realize

where you are and, and earn some money first, you know, so medical education is very expensive.

I'd love to see it, you know, go down or I'd love to see a process and we're, we're, we're working

for that. Residency is different though. You get paid, you get paid a lot, no, but you get paid,

you do get paid and they get paid far more than we ever got paid. So are they paying their loans?

Probably not, not during residency, but you know, so they're not paying their student loans, but

they live in and they're living decently, you know, and, you know, certainly the family,

whether it be, you know, the spouse or significant other of some sort does, you know, take on that

same debt. I get that, but, but it's doable. So not, I would not make the finances a decision maker.

If you want to be a physician, be a physician because you're going to be a great physician.

What I don't really enjoy is the people that don't know that they want to be a physician, but get in

because they're brilliant, but then they really don't have the heart and now they've got the debt.

So they can't not be the physician. They have to keep going. Do you know what I'm saying?

And they stop, they quit after they get, after they graduate, you know, so they burn out. What

you want to be is that person that really, you know, you don't want burnout. You really don't want

burnout. You've got debt and burnout. That's just a horrible thing. So you seem to be a superhero in

your own right. You're a wife, a mother, a physician that owns her own practice. Can you just tell us,

because you do have kids and kids love superheroes, can you tell us what your superpower is and how

that's made you successful? Superpower, you know, I think it's, I'm going to say, I think, well,

I think it's my faith, my belief in God, and that, that I know it'll work, whatever it is, it's going

to happen. The right thing will come. I don't worry because I have no time for worry and anxiety. I

think that's, how do I say this? Because I know in this day and age, this is so almost impossible,

but I, to think that I don't believe in worry, but what I'm trying to say is the world is, and the

universe is bigger than me. And I have a purpose and I just have to find that purpose and make sure

that I fulfill it. Because if I don't, then I'm not living to my full capacity. And so if I sit and

worry, I'm wasting time. And to me, time is valuable. And so I want to use all the hours and

the time that I have to make, like I said, that impact on someone, on life, on society, on the

profession, on our patients. So I don't have time for worry. So I guess I just have this energy

that I want to keep doing and going and being, and being there for my kids and certainly watching

them, you know, strive and, and survive and, and do more than that, you know, keep, keep doing the

best they can be. So, you know, my father always said that whatever you believe you can achieve,

and it's like the world is yours, just take it on and, and do, but to sit and watch it go by,

I don't have time for that. I do rest, you know, sit back and, and enjoy life. I'm not saying that

I have to speed through it, but I'm saying I want to be part of it and not, you know, I want to help

it happen and, and, you know, be really engaged and not just watch it happen. So, you know, and

again, I love, I feel accomplished when I see my kids. Oh my gosh. You know, my son just graduated

from Miami of Ohio and we had, yeah, thank you. It was so great. And he, he, he did a double major.

He did finance from the business school there and Chinese. And, and basically he's eight years,

you know, he did eight, four years in high school, four years in college. And so he's a scholar in

Chinese, but what's so he's such a easy going kid and he graduated during COVID. Right. That's a

challenge in and of itself. Yeah, it was a challenge, but you know, he, what I love is he's

developed such good, strong, long-term friendships and of that group, he's the leader again. And so

I love when I see him leading his group, even in a very easy going, relaxed way, you know, and he's

got these lifelong friends that he's had since high school and grammar school all the way in through

college. And, and, you know, same thing with my daughter. She's just amazing. She's dancer and

she's really artistic and she, she really knows her stuff and she wants, she's in high school,

but she, you know, it's just doing really well. So I, I, with them, I get so excited to see them

do things and, and be the leaders. You know, my, my husband, I think, I haven't even talked about

him, but he's what all happened because he's my support. If, if he wasn't tolerant of my

overbounding energy and my ever, you know, go, go, go and let's do and whatever he, I mean, he

supports my practice style and that I like to be independent. You know, it would be easy if I just

would let someone hire, you know, if I just got employed and, you know, but he, you know, so he's,

he's in business and finance and, and, you know, certainly helps keep an eye, you know, cause I

certainly would do a lot for free. You know, when you get those patients, I have the bleeding heart

that, oh, it's okay. Let me just help you here. Hey, we have to pay the light bills, you know,

we're a good team. If you know what I mean, you know, and that's what it is. I think it's,

it's having the environment around you support what you need to do to, to be again, the best

person you can be and, and certainly help others. And I just always think of the positive, you know,

it will, things will be what they're meant to be, you know, who would have known going

way back to the early part of the story that I was telling you, who would have known

that if I went to UC San Francisco, it would have been a whole different life for me. I mean,

you know, so what I thought was a, oh, no, was actually the best thing ever. And, you know,

when you see something go a different way than you think, there's a purpose for it.

There's a reason for it and be open to it, you know. So, you know, I mean, that's all I'm trying

to think. I always think of, find the positive out of what could be a negative. Right. So,

so you may have just answered my last question for you, but what, what, like, what was the best piece

of advice that you got through your education that you always think of and would pass on to

other students? Oh, let's see. Piece of advice. Well, you know, it's funny, I had a lot of

challenges, and I think challenges are important because they make you question and think

about how you can, you know, either throw up your hands and give up or, or make a difference.

And again, I think my, you know, make a difference, make an impact, do something, be real,

you know, and so take on the challenges instead of letting them defeat you. You know,

I, I don't know that I was given that as a, as a comment, but I guess I would say that to a

student because right now, what are the challenges for students? There's so many finances, work-life

balance, right? Because you guys are working around the clock, you have families, you have lives, but

you're working, working, working to learn to, you know, and, and the students now, you all have,

have, you know, some of you did just come out of school, you know what I mean? College right into,

you know, I should say, you know, into medical school, but a lot of, of us, you know, because I

didn't, but a lot of people, you know, do other things. And so you have this full life and then

you, you are being a medical student and having to, as we said, take on the financial burden,

but also the educational burden. And so I always say just, you know, one step at a time,

you know, one step at a time, take it slow, take a breath and know that it will work out,

but find that balance because it's important to have that support and balance in order to keep you

going. So I, I do think, you know, you have to have time for nutrition and time for sleep and,

and, and, you know, time for exercise and time for family and socialization, even in this COVID time,

but you have to, you know, also know what you can take on. And so, you know, who says

that you have to do it everyone else's way, do it your way, you know, and try to make that impact

to make that difference. Well, I guess the chairman of the board was right. I'll do it,

I'll do it my way or go my way. So thank you so much, Dr. Kafka. I know, Matt and I have really

enjoyed, well, you gave us 80 minutes, which we so appreciate. I know that you've had a long weekend,

so we just want to thank you so much. And we look forward to hearing this on air and just,

this was just so awesome. And I know you, I know you mentioned like doing this for free, but it's

so wonderful. And we hope that we can kind of pay it forward by helping other people in the profession

in the future. Oh, that's, that would be great. You know, I think that this is such a cool thing.

I loved the do or not do not or whatever. I think that, you know, if you guys developed this or

whoever did, this is phenomenal because I hope, I hope it's helpful. And I will say this, anything

I can ever do, I think this is the greatest, definitely pay it forward, definitely, you know,

pass on the word. I think what we have, the gift we have to give others as osteopathic physicians,

I see no barriers. I see opportunity galore and it's, and it's what we want to do with it,

but we could take it so many different ways. And that's what's so cool about it.

We have more interviews lined up and we're excited to share them with you.

This is Tien Niu Shea. Thank you guys so much for listening to do or do not.