D.O. or Do Not: The Osteopathic Physician's Journey for Premed & Medical Students

Episode 44: Edith Waskel OMS-IV and Edward Ng OMS-IV SOMA & COSGP

April 27, 2021 Season 1 Episode 44
D.O. or Do Not: The Osteopathic Physician's Journey for Premed & Medical Students
Episode 44: Edith Waskel OMS-IV and Edward Ng OMS-IV SOMA & COSGP
Show Notes Transcript

For our fourth and final Osteopathic Medicine Month episode, we had the pleasure to host Student Doctor Edith Waskel, OMS-IV, and Student Doctor Edward Ng, OMS-IV, MS. Edie and Ed are current fourth-year osteopathic medical students and soon-to-be graduates of the Western University of Health Sciences College of Osteopathic Medicine of the Pacific (WU-COMP) in Pomona, California. Successfully beating the odds and couples-matching to the University of Illinois-Chicago Emergency Medicine Residency program, they will begin their physician journey as emergency medicine interns this July.

Drawn to the mind, body, and spirit approach of osteopathic medicine, Edie felt a career as an osteopathic physician was a natural choice. As she entered medical school, she quickly recognized her passion for healthcare policy and osteopathic political advocacy and entered into leadership roles within the Student Osteopathic Medical Association (SOMA). Currently, she serves as the student representative on the American Osteopathic Association (AOA) Board of Trustees. In this position, Edie has worked alongside Kevin Klauer, D.O., EJD,  current CEO of the AOA, to help eliminate any remaining osteopathic medical student discrimination students may have encountered when applying to away rotations and residencies – a huge success for the osteopathic profession. Additionally, enthusiastic about social medicine, she has also served as the National SOMA Community Outreach Director and on the SOMA Resolutions Committee to help amplify the osteopathic medical student voice.

Ed also found that the osteopathic philosophy aligned with his own healthcare philosophy and chose to pursue a career as an osteopathic physician over the allopathic route – with the added bonus that WU-COMP was close to home. As a first-generation American and college student, Ed’s connection to medicine grew from his humble roots and desire to serve others. Like Edie, Ed chose to pursue medical school leadership positions focused on healthcare policy and osteopathic political advocacy. As a medical student, he served on the American Association of Osteopathic Medicine’s Council of Osteopathic Student Government Presidents by overseeing the Mental Health Awareness Task Force. In this position, he helped to organize the Osteopathic Medical Student Day of Wellness, which is dedicated to bringing recognition to the mental health challenges medical students face and stopping the stigma associated with mental health. Similarly to Edie, he also worked to pass osteopathic medical policy to help further and better the profession by acting as an alternate voting delegate at the 2019 American Osteopathic Association House of Delegates.

As they enter into the next stage of their osteopathic medical career, Edie and Ed are excited for their future together as emergency medicine residents in Chicago, IL – and hopefully, with a puppy. Tune in to learn more about their experience with the NRMP couple’s match, healthcare policy and osteopathic political advocacy, and their advice for students pursuing a career in osteopathic medicine.


Edited by Nicholas Buskill

My name is Dr. Ian Storch. I'm a board-certified gastroenterologist and osteopathic physician,

and you are listening to DO or DO NOT. If you are interested in joining our team or

have suggestions or comments, please contact us at DoOrDoNotPodcast.com. Share our link with

your friends and like us on Apple Podcasts, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. We hope you

enjoy this episode. For our fourth and final Osteopathic Medicine Month episode, we had the

pleasure to host a special episode with student Dr. Edith Waskell and student Dr. Edward Ng.

Edith and Ed are current fourth-year osteopathic medical students and soon-to-be graduates of the

Western University of Health Sciences College of Osteopathic Medicine of the Pacific

in Pomona, California. These two students' couples matched to the University of Illinois Chicago

Emergency Medicine Residency Program, where they will begin their physician journey as emergency

medicine interns this July. Student Dr. Waskell will speak on her experiences and leadership

roles within the Student Osteopathic Medical Association, a national not-for-profit osteopathic

medical organization founded to ensure a high quality of education for osteopathic medical

students, promote unity within the osteopathic medical profession, and improve the delivery of

healthcare by doctors of osteopathic medicine. Student Dr. Ng is a first-generation American

and college student, and he speaks on how his connection to medicine grew from his humble

roots and desire to serve others. Student Dr. Ng also chose to pursue medical school leadership

positions focused on healthcare policy and osteopathic political advocacy. As a medical

student, student Dr. Ng served on the American Association of Osteopathic Medicines Council of

Osteopathic Student Government Presidents, overseeing the Mental Health Awareness Task Force.

COSGP is comprised of the student government and council presidents from each of the nation's

osteopathic medical colleges and serves as the liaison between osteopathic professional

organizations and all its students. Both of these awesome student physicians worked

throughout medical school to pass osteopathic medical policy as well as help further and better

the osteopathic profession. Let's now listen to their amazing journeys. Welcome back everyone to

another episode of Do or Do Not. Today we're welcoming Edith Waskell and Edward Ng. Thank

you for agreeing to be on the podcast as we want to spotlight you both during Osteopathic

Medicine Awareness Month. You both are highly involved in advocacy for your fellow DO students

in our profession. The podcast team would like to plain thank you both for everything that you guys

do. So welcome. Thanks for having us. So for the remainder of the interview, can I call you Edie

and Ed? Yes, of course. So first question, just tell us a little bit about the organizations you

both are a part of and what you do within those organizations to advocate for students and the

profession. I can go first on this one. Throughout my medical school career, I started off with

SOMA, Student Osteopathic Medical Association, and kind of served in a few different roles

through that, leading into some national roles, including community outreach director.

And then that propelled me into the AOA or American Osteopathic Association.

And currently I'm representing as the student trustee on the AOA Board of Trustees.

I was a part of COSGP, which stands for the Council of Osteopathic Student Government Presidents.

It's an organization comprised of all the student government presidents and vice presidents from

every single osteopathic medical school in the nation. In my capacity, I served as general council

member, basically kind of part of this council that discussed osteopathic education and advocacy

and policy. And then during my third year, I was appointed on the executive board as their national

public relations and web person. What motivated each of you to become passionate to advocate for

us as medical students, as well as the profession? Did it happen during medical school? Did it happen

before medical school? And what motivated you to join the organizations that you did, like SOMA,

COSGP, and the AOA? For me, I had no leadership experience prior to medical school, and I had

never been a part of advocacy or policy. But when I joined medical school, I was elected class president.

And as part of that role, I was automatically a member of COSGP. And so I was kind of thrust

into the role. But as I went throughout the process and kind of went through to all the meetings,

I learned that I really enjoy being that voice for my classmates and being that bridge between

medical students and the profession overall. And so it kind of made me motivated to keep doing it.

And that's why I became an executive board member. And it's something that I didn't think I would

end up loving. But now I feel like it's going to be a part of my career for years to come.

For me, I was not interested in politics at all. I came into medical school just trying to kind

of encourage myself to stop extracurriculars, kind of just focus on med school. But obviously,

there were other plans. Once I got here, I had a second year as an incoming first year who

I looked up to. She was the national liaison officer for SOMA. And just through talking to

her, she was the one who encouraged me to apply for the position that she had. She shared her

experiences. And once I applied for it and attended my first DO day on the Hill, which is where

osteopathic physicians and medical students all advocate at the Capitol in Washington, DC,

that was my first experience with having any kind of political advocacy with standing up for our

profession as a whole. And just everything that I learned from that, everything that the AOA and

ACOM helped with getting us prepared, finally learning about topics that are actually important

to health education and continuing in our medical careers. And being able to advocate for that at

the offices of different Congress people, whether that was in the House or in the Senate, talking to

the staff members. So that was just an experience that really stuck with me. And I just wanted to

continue to advocate after that. So working with other SOMA members, I moved up to work on National

Resolutions Committee, where I got more involved in the resolutions that came through SOMA into

our own house or into the House of Delegates for the AOA. And I guess just from there, I really

enjoyed working with like-minded people. I know Ed has talked about this too within CSGP, but when

you're really with other students who are motivated to work on the same projects as you or get to the

same kind of outcome for the betterment of the entire group is just really vitalizing and

encouraging. And from there, I think through my experiences in SOMA, I grew a lot as a leader and

I learned both from my own experiences and those who came before me. And I think that's what really

pushed me to apply for the AOA Student Trustee position. It's a lot. There's a lot of other

leadership titles within being a Student Trustee. And it's probably more than I realized it would

be, but not in a bad way, in a way that I've been able to really work with a team at a higher level

of cognition, I guess, and really just stretching myself and growing myself even further as a leader.

That's awesome, guys. I'm really happy that you guys both hit two separate points of views,

one of you kind of being thrusted into politics and policy and advocacy and the other kind of

running into a mentor. I think that's what I hear mostly either one of those two stories.

So that's awesome. And thank you again for advocating so much for our profession.

Now, to just steer away from those types of questions and going into

your paths to medicine, when and how did you know medicine was the career you wanted to pursue?

And did you have any mentors or parents or family members that were in the medical field?

I guess I honestly went into college kind of thinking about medicine, but really focusing on

wanting to help people. And I did have really good professors. I went to a smaller private university,

so I got to know the faculty more on a one-on-one basis. And through talking to the faculty,

I learned that there's a lot of different ways to help people in the health field.

And I really love exercise and fitness. So originally, I was thinking of maybe pursuing

physical therapy or becoming a PT. And then I shadowed one in an inpatient setting and realized

there's not a lot going on in terms of pace and just how many patients you're seeing at a time.

And through that, through finishing college, applying for medical school in the years afterwards,

being a medical scribe during that time, I think that's where I really learned that I wanted to

pursue medicine to its highest. I have a twin sister who ended up pursuing PA or physician

assistant. And I joke that she made the smarter move because she got in and out really fast.

But personally, I think the time, the dedication, sacrificing our 20s, it's all been worth it for me.

For me, I kind of knew I wanted to be a physician from a young age. I know it's kind of like the

job that a lot of kids talk about. When you ask a kid what they want to be, they're either a doctor,

police officer, firefighter, something, at least for little boys. But for me, my dad got sick really

young. And I was 10 years old when he had a aneurysm that burst and became a subarachnoid.

And as a kid, I didn't know what that meant. But I knew that my dad was sick. And there were people

in white coats who came and helped him. So for me, I've always wanted to be a doctor. And that

dream kind of really didn't seem possible until I got into college. And I actually kind of

looked into what it was. And it was even harder because I had no mentors. My parents are both

immigrants from Malaysia. The highest level of education they have is high school education.

And so even applying to college was a feat in itself because I had no one to lean on.

And I had to teach myself basically. But medicine was always that kind of dream career. And when

they tell you that you have to be the best of the best to get into medical school, that was super

daunting for me. And I almost gave up on that dream because I was afraid that I wouldn't be good

enough. But I realized that you don't need to be the best of the best. You just need to work hard

and you need to be passionate. And so for me, I'm glad I stuck with it because now I'm living my

dream and I'm going to be a physician. So that's kind of how I knew medicine was the career for me.

I'd like to ask the pre-medical students on the podcast, where you both went to undergraduate

school and were there any experiences that kind of led you into medicine? I know Ed, you were just

saying that you've always wanted to be a physician, but maybe Edie, was there anything in undergrad

that kind of pushed you even more so into the medical field? For me, I went to the University

of Southern California. And like you said, Amir, I had a lot of experience with wanting to be a

physician, but not a lot of experience in how. And so the thing that I was lucky in is that USC

is affiliated with a very prestigious medical school and prestigious hospital. And so I was

able to do a little bit of shadowing in the hospital, do a little bit of research in the hospital

and kind of get a glimpse into what it was like to be a physician. And so that's kind of how it

shaped me and how it kind of helped me decide that this was a path I could go on. So I'm pretty

fortunate that I went to University of Southern California for that. For me, I don't know how many

people will know about this college, but it's in Riverside, California. It's California Baptist

University. And I had a lot of friends who were involved in the nursing program there. It's an

excellent program. I was involved in a lot of music and outreach opportunities, but I did major

in biology. And through that, like I said, I really got to know my faculty and I do have to shout one

specifically out. His name is Dr. Prince. And like Ed, I really did not have any exposure to

people in medicine. My sister and I were the first ones to ever pursue this level of education as

well. So this was all new for us. She and I both went to college together and kind of helped motivate

each other to pursue medicine. But in the end, we ended up choosing different careers within

medicine. But Dr. Prince was definitely the one who motivated me and encouraged me even when I felt

like talking to the pre-med students, maybe you don't get the best grade in a certain class,

but if you really push yourself and you have people who are encouraging you and helping point

you in the right direction, Dr. Prince would invite previous students who had actually been

in medical school to come back and speak to us. So I think that was my first exposure to seeing

an osteopathic medical student and also just my first time ever really being able to see myself

in that next step. Edie, beating me to the punch. Next question about osteopathic schools and how

you ultimately learned about osteopathic school and why you chose to attend a DO school rather

an allopathic school. Justin aside, Ed, I did read on your social media that you were accepted into

both. Yeah, I was accepted into both. For me, it came down to family. The osteopathic program

that I got into was 15 minutes from my parents' house. And with my dad being sick and all that

stuff, I just wanted to be close to home versus the allopathic school I got into was in New York.

And that was quite a trek. For me, I also knew I wanted to go into a specific specialty that

was DO friendly that I didn't see myself having a problem getting into as a DO. And so for me,

it just fit for me to be at home, for me to be in this program that kind of has a philosophy of

using your hands as well as a holistic approach. And then specialty selection was a big factor for

me as well. I'm going to be completely honest and I hope this really helps encourage pre-med students

to really still put themselves out there. I did not understand the whole process. I think this

was my second time applying. So I tried to get it in a little bit earlier, but applying to med

schools also cost money. So I didn't apply very broadly and knowing who I was really looking to

osteopathic medical schools, it seemed to line up with the way that I typically run my own life.

And just having that, you know, thinking of the different pillars, how mind, body and spirit are

really interconnected. I take priority in each of those points in my own life. So it made sense to

me to apply to osteopathic medical school. I did apply to my other school that I really wanted to

go to was an MD school and seem, but still seem to apply those types of concepts, still had a lot

of spirit involved in the way that they approach medicine. But ultimately, Amir, I was accepted to

one school after being waitlisted. So there's hope out there, guys. Yeah, I was waitlisted for a

while and finally accepted a few months later. And that's all it took. You know, med school

became the next step of my journey. And now here we are. Thank you for sharing your experiences.

And Edie, you have, being on a waitlist doesn't say anything. And I can definitely second that

you have become one of the best advocates for our profession alongside the beautiful Ed.

Love you guys and love what you guys do for us. Thank you for calling me beautiful. Appreciate

that. Always, always. So just to go a little bit into more med school, more med student oriented

questions, I'd like to ask how your experience was during med school. What did you do to motivate

yourself? What did you do to kind of make yourself attractive for residency applications?

So another thing that was kind of a surprise to me once I was in medical school was my interest

in osteopathic teaching fellowship, which I was able to complete during third and fourth year,

and it extended my medical school experience into a fifth year. So something that really stands out

to your residencies is a teaching aspect, right? So as a resident, you'll be teaching medical

students. As a senior resident, you're teaching the interns that are coming in. So any kind of

teaching aspect that you can include in your past experiences definitely stands out to residency

as it came out on every single one of my interviews. And it actually ended up being a

huge place of friendship for me. So first and second year really buckled down, created close

friendships with a few people. And then obviously Ed and I met and that created a strong relationship

and strong person to lean on during tough times. But my friends within fellowship really created

a natural mentorship where the fifth year fellows could help the third year fellows and kind of give

them some insight into the application process for a residency. Or if there were students

interested in the same specialty as you, you could talk to them because they're already applying into

that residency and they've already had audition rotations or just experience that you haven't had

yet. So I think having that fellowship experience, teaching first and second years, the osteopathic

techniques and philosophy not only helped me in my understanding of what it means to be an

osteopathic physician, but also better prepared me to be one. You kind of talked about what we

did in school to kind of make ourselves seem attractive to residency programs, right? Amir,

is that kind of the question that you asked? Yes, exactly. That's a really interesting question

because I feel like I didn't do anything in medical school specifically to make myself more

attractive. I didn't do anything in medical school with the intention of, well, it's going to look

like it's better for the residency programs. I think I just did things that I enjoyed.

And for me, my experience in med school was, you know, it was a very kind of interesting one

because there were moments where I had really high highs and then there were moments where I

had really low lows. And I think it was kind of this emotional roller coaster. You know,

my leadership experience was one of the best things I had. And my leadership experience was

kind of integral to, you know, how I would shape out as a future clinician. And so for me,

highlights of my experience for sure. And obviously meeting Edie was great too, because

I am leaving medical school with a partner. But overall, my experience in med school was kind of

just working hard and trying to stay emotionally sane and afloat. I think a lot of people can kind

of agree to that. I definitely agree with that. That's awesome. Thank you. So just to go into some

of the hot topics of what every med student would like to know, you both matched an awesome

residency, you guys did a couples match, one of the hardest things to do, especially in emergency

medicine into the same program. One question before we start talking about couples match a

little later, question that everyone asks is, did you take USMLE? I took both and Edie took both as

well. And she can obviously give you her insight. But I took I took level one, and then I took step

one, level two, and then step two. I think for me, why I took it was because I wanted to have

open options for residency programs. And I know that, you know, CLCPA and SOMA have been actively

working against that and fight and now there's legislation and language that says that the

complex is equivalent to the USMLE. However, not every program believes that I decided to take the

USMLE just to be safe. Yes, I took both exams, complex level one and level two, and then step

one and step two. And I actually took the level two PE as well before COVID started. And I agree,

I think going into emergency medicine and being competitive also from California, it's just what

the students do here because we don't want to kind of shoot ourselves in the foot a bit. I do know

from being involved in SOMA and other portions of the country, complex on its own is more acceptable.

But the culture here at our medical school, everyone just seems to take both. It's pretty

rare to not take both. And honestly, I do believe there's a slight difference in structure of the

exams and then taking level two PE, I was able to experience that without any skin in the game

since I already took that and passed that. It wasn't part of contingency for me, but I did

help advocate for that based off of the student voice across the nation. So that's what my position

is as AOA student trustee is to advocate for the student voice. And through working with both

COSGP's eBoard and SOMA's Board of Trustees, we were able to gather that information and

bring that to both the AOA and NBOME in a professional fashion.

So just hearing from both of you saying that both of you took the exams just to open more doors for

your residencies. Did you have any sort of obstacles other than taking these exams during

residency? Did you have any sort of discrimination or any obstacles that you had to jump over

just being a DO student? Well, I do know since the DO discrimination is a huge portion of my

role right now, it's reportable on the AOA's website. I'm having students who feel like

they're going through discrimination copy me on those emails through my AOA email just to keep

tabs on that because through VSAS, which is the Visiting Student Application site, if there's

a rotation that's not available to osteopathic students just because they've taken Comlex

only or that site just isn't taking osteopathic students, then that opportunity doesn't even show

up to the osteopathic student on VSAS. It's not even listed as an opportunity. So we've been going

on different websites to figure out which ones are not actually available to medical students or not.

So I think there were some opportunities that Ed and I might have missed just because they

weren't even listed for us on VSAS. But I think a lot of times being the only DO student that's on

a rotation, sometimes you feel like you have to prove yourself a little bit more. I've had good

experiences with my rotations. I've only had one physician kind of scoff or chuckle at me when

asking what rotation I just came off of and I said it was my OMM rotation, you know, kind of

basically thought I took a vacation for four weeks. But I don't know, Ed, did you have any

specific examples? I think that any hurdles that I might have faced were just placed by myself.

Because here's the thing, right? It's not a secret that there is some discrimination against DOs

in certain VSAS or VSLO rotations. And I think that there are still people who have stigma against

us. But for me, it wasn't a huge issue because I just decided to show off and kind of just come in

and put my head down and do work. And the biggest example I can give you is during my sub internship

or away rotation, whatever you want to call it, I did it at a pretty prestigious residency program.

And I was a DO with a bunch of high level MD students. And I think that for me,

if no one asked me what school I went to, they wouldn't have known I went to a DO school.

Because I think for me, my goal was to work as hard as I possibly could and to leave no doubts

and to make everybody there go, well, he went to a DO school, they must be great. And so for me,

obstacles, yeah, there are some. But for me, I decided to not even deal with those obstacles.

I didn't have to worry about going through obstacles. I just went around them. And so

I think that was the big deal. Step one and step two were obviously things that we had to do.

And we kind of already talked about that. But other than that, when I was applying to residency,

I got interviews from schools and residencies programs that I didn't think that a DO would be

qualified for. So I got interviews from programs that were at the number two hospital in the nation.

I got programs that were huge county programs. So I think for me as a DO, it wasn't a huge issue.

I just had to show up and and work hard. So just move in towards your specialty,

both of you are emergency medicine. Just love to know what process you took to choose your specialty.

Did you know from the beginning of med school that you wanted to do emergency? And if you had any

other specialties that went head to head with emergency medicine as your top choice?

First of all, emergency medicine is the best specialty period. I think I'm a little biased.

Agreed. I think I'm a little biased in that. But for me, I've always wanted to be an emergency

medicine physician. I kind of came into med school with the intention of becoming an ER doc. Because

I kind of so going back to my dad, right, so him and his many health problems, there were times

where he got sick, or had you know, a seizure, or had a mini stroke, and I had no clue what to do.

And I hated feeling like that. And I knew that from that point on, I wanted to be that doctor that

no matter what the situation was, where we were, and who was, you know, getting sick or who had an

or who had an issue, I wanted to be that person that knew what to do next. I never wanted to be

that person that froze. And emergency medicine is kind of that specialty that allows you to do that.

Additionally, I grew up super poor. And I love serving the underserved, because these are my

people. And social medicine has become a huge aspect of my life. Emergency medicine is kind

of that beautiful specialty where social medicine is ingrained in our specialty. For EM, we are the

gatekeepers to the hospital, we really are. And so for a lot of patients, we are the first doctors

they've seen in years, probably. And social medicine is a huge aspect of emergency medicine.

So I couldn't imagine picking anything else. I will say that during third year, I flirted with

the idea of applying to general surgery as well. But only because I wanted to do acute care, and

you know, trauma surgery. But I realized that that lifestyle wasn't for me. I respect everybody who's

going into surgery, but that's just not for me. And so I'm glad I end up sticking with EM, because

now I have a residency position, and I'm on my way. I totally echo what Ed said about emergency

medicine. Huge aspect of that is social medicine. And my work through SOMA for community outreach

director just really showed me that I wanted to continue working for different people groups who

aren't quite getting the medical care that they need. And maybe they only get that from

an emergency department. So people suffering from homelessness or a huge passion of mine is increasing

education and awareness of victims of human trafficking. And I think a lot of those types

of patients come through without docs or nurses or medical staff really realizing it. So those

are aspects that later on, once I figured out that emergency medicine is what I am pursuing,

those types of things started becoming more evident to me. And it's something that I will

continue working on as a resident. But for me going into medical school, I stayed open,

I did scribe for an emergency department for a couple of years, and then for a family doc

for a year after that, before I had like a three year gap between college and medical school.

And there were stark differences between the pace of seeing patients, the family doc that

I scribe for, she was semi retired and also loved geriatrics. And so she would have 45 minute

meetings with her patients. And it was great to have the continuity of care, she really knew her

patients. And that's something that we won't always have in the emergency setting. But man,

I just really like the pace of the ED, it's just, you see a patient, you're helping them out,

there's a lot of really tangible results that can occur pretty quickly. And I kept my mind open

going through medical school, especially on rotations. And I realized I like a little bit

of each rotation, you know, I really liked OB-GYN, it almost pulled me but I also realized

I just wanted more variety, OB-GYN has huge variety, they're doing clinics and inpatient and

surgery, you know, they've kind of got their feet in a little bit of everything. But for me,

I still wanted to work on the front lines of social medicine and see a wide variety of patients. And

you're really only going to get that through emergency medicine or family practice. And

just knowing what I knew about the type of pace that I like and seeing patients,

it resulted in still being emergency medicine.

Dr. Justin Marchegiani You guys definitely hit that unique outlook on emergency medicine that

nobody talks about when we're in med school or pre-med, that of social medicine and educating

the patients. I love that. And, you know, we can't forget that both of you were meant to do

emergency medicine and work in the emergency department. Both your names start with ED.

Dad joke. So going on from there, I'd love to know how you both did the couples match and

if you could explain the difference between the typical match and the couples match,

and what was your personal experience?

Dr. Lauren Ruffin It is quite different. I think it's a lot of planning leading into,

you know, where you guys would like to do your audition rotations. It's a lot of communication

between you and your partner. Are you guys going into the same specialty or not? Are there hospitals

that offer both specialties you might be interested in? If it is the same specialty,

are you guys really going to aim for having the same program or are you okay being in the same

region? And Ed and I agreed initially like we were just fine being in the same region. We actually

probably prefer that over being in the same residency program just to have natural space

and different stories when you come home from your shift. But something great about the residency

program that we're going to, it's spread pretty equally across four hospitals. So we'll still

have our own unique experiences while also going through with the same kind of community as we go

through each year of residency. I feel like Ed did a really great job of setting up our couples

match and rank list. So I'll let him talk about the actual process of it.

Yeah, so our couples match is a little different because we both went into the same specialty.

And so if you think about the match, that's already a layer of complexity.

When you do a couples match, it's even more complicated because now you have to account

for two people and the algorithm and all that stuff. But when you do same specialty,

it gets even kind of harder because it's easier in the sense that you know exactly which programs

you're applying to because you don't have to worry about finding cities that have the same program

or the cities that have your program and your partner's program. When you're both going into

the same specialty, you know exactly which programs you're looking at because you guys

are both looking at the same programs. The difficulty comes in kind of deciding

where you want to apply and then making sure that you get interviews in the same area. So

where we want to apply, Ed and I sat down and we looked at databases for residency to kind of

narrow down which programs we really wanted to apply to. So we went state by state and there

were certain states that we did not feel like we wanted to live in. And so we didn't apply to those,

but there were certain states that we really loved. So we applied to basically every program

in that state. So Illinois is a pretty good example. With the exception of maybe a few

programs, we applied to almost every single emergency medicine program in Illinois because

we really liked Chicago. And for us, that was kind of the big first step. Once we started getting

interviews, we really advocated for each other. So there were certain programs where I had an

interview and Ed did it. And I mentioned that my partner was also applying EM. And so that program

ended up offering Ed an interview. And the same goes for Ed. She had interviews at programs that

I did and she mentioned my name and then I got the interview. So a lot of advocation was going on.

With people who are going into different specialties, that's still something that you

can do. You can still talk to the PD or program coordinator of the program that you're

interviewing at and they can potentially reach out to the program director of the specialty

that your partner is going into. And so again, communication and advocacy is really key. And

that's kind of how you can maximize your chances. The final step of that is creating a rank list.

And we went through our rank list over and over and over. There were several iterations of it.

We had a big poster board that we posted all our programs at and it was a dynamic poster board.

We kept changing the order and eventually we communicated about realistically where we thought

we were going to go, where we would like to go. And we took into account whether each person liked

the program more or less. And in the end, it all worked out because we matched at the same program.

And so that kind of worked out for us. Let me also explain. And pre-meds and

first years in medical school don't need to think about this quite yet. But when you make

your rank list for match, you create it based off of the number of places that you interviewed.

So let's say someone interviewed at 10 places, their rank list would be numbers 1 through 10

and that's it. Well, for a couple, it's every type of combination between the programs that

each couple interviewed at and each combination that is listed. For our number one, let's say I

have place A and Ed has place B. They're not considered separately. They're considered as

one combination. It's one rank list. So our number one is with A and B, both in that first line.

So if A doesn't match me but B is interested in Ed, then that first line won't work because

of me having A as number one. So it can lend towards a huge list of varying combinations.

And obviously, the first few you're putting in the same region, same places, and then the lower

on the rank list you go, the more spread out. So that's the way that Ed and I approached it.

And ultimately, it worked out. I love how the conversation was started with giggles and sighs,

just thinking about all the permutations you all went through. Oh, yeah.

That was rough. So just going back into osteopathic medicine and being a DO

and your education as a DO, what were your proudest moments during your education as a DO?

Did you have any aha moments or any moments that you will brag on for the rest of your career?

Why don't you go first, Edie?

I feel like there's a few that stick out. I mean, I think honestly, being involved in SOMA,

that's not ever going to go away. I'm sure that's going to lead towards lifelong friendships

and partnerships. And I can't put one specific experience. I think just the experience of being

involved in SOMA just really highlighted my medical school experience. I was always happy

at our national conferences. It was a lot of hard work, but it was definitely worth it.

My only other thing would be the fellowship. Like I said, I really enjoyed those moments teaching

first and second year medical students when they're really not getting it. I switch up my

teaching style, check in with them, and then they finally have that moment where you know they

understand or they got that HVLA thrust, they got the cavitation on it, you know, like those moments

and you get to celebrate with your students in their successes. I think those are the two

biggest points in my experience. For me, being a part of COSGP was a huge accomplishment for me,

being on a national leadership organization. And then matching, matching at a really prestigious

and historic EM program was really huge for me. But those are things that kind of pale in comparison

with my actual private moment, which is something that can't even be quantified,

is that I'm a first generation student. I'm the first person in my entire family to become a

physician. I'm the proud son of immigrants, and I am the first person in my family to go to a

really high level institution, and then for college, and then medical school, and now I'm a doctor.

And to me, that was my proudest moment, to know that the son of immigrants worked hard and did

everything that he could to become a doctor. And that's kind of like my crowning achievement

of medical school. And the fact that I got to be a DO was just a plus.

I love how both of you stumbled on trying to find that one

thing, that one moment. But to talk a little bit more about some experiences you've had,

some proud moments, I did pick, Edie, congrats on being student doctor of the year. And, you know,

Ed, we talked a little bit about your award, the Lawrence Gozzenfeld Award given to you by your

school for service and academic excellence. I'd just like to give the audience a little bit of

experience or whatever you had to do to become the student doctor to receive these awards. What did

you do? Well, I, oh my gosh, yeah, well, thank you for pointing out becoming student doctor of the

year for my school. So, um, yeah, it was something that I'm definitely honored to receive. Usually,

what happens is someone from your school nominates you for this. So I was nominated. And once you

find out that you're nominated, then you fill out an application and basically it's your entire CV

all over again onto this application and an essay prompt. And for me, it was kind of a chance for me

to talk about some of the experiences that I've been through, that I've in life gone through, even

as med school was happening. So honestly, I think even if you go through tough times, if you are

able to lean on those around you, you're able to succeed and you're able to come out of that. I

think it takes a lot of grit and just a lot of leaning on those who love you to help pull you

out of those tough times. And yeah, obviously it worked for me. And the fact that it was recognized

was just a blessing on top of that, but being able to advocate for students, advocate for our

osteopathic profession, but also be able to volunteer through free healthcare clinics,

through being, like I said, community outreach director on the national level for Soma. I think

all of these things, it takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of time out of studying, out of

preparing for your classes, or maybe sometimes that you'd rather be hanging out with friends,

you're on conference calls or at national meetings. And it can be difficult at times. I definitely

felt burnt out and I met up with my advisor and she helped me realize, she's like, Edie, you're

burnt out. That's what's going on. And once I finally realized that I was able to kind of reset

myself and through third and fourth year, really excel. And so I would say that's what this award

represents being student doctor of the year for my university, for my med school really just

encompasses everyone I was able to lean on and my journey through med school.

For me, this award was a huge surprise because you technically have to apply for it. And I wasn't

going to apply for it because I'm not the type of person that tends to apply for scholarships or

awards, because I feel like I don't really deserve them. And it's this weird thing I have, but I

went into leadership because I felt like I could make a difference, not because I was looking for

any type of validation or reward. It wasn't until my best friends and Edie and some of the professors

kind of pushed me into applying for this award that I decided to do it. And to me, it just feels

really good to be, I guess, recognized. Because even though I said, like, you know, you don't go

into leadership and service to get recognition, to be recognized is still a good feeling. And

this particular award is the highest scholarship value that our school gives. And so it felt really

kind of nice to be one of the recipients of this award.

You both deserve it and you deserve more. You guys are so humble, too. So talking about the future

and your guys' future, do you guys think or plan to continue advocating for the profession and

students after you graduate?

Yeah, I think for me, one of the perks of matching Chicago is that all of the, you know, the AOA,

the AMA, the MBME, the MBOME, they all have headquarters in Chicago. And then even with

emergency medicine, Chicago is a big hotspot for that. So I think Edie and I are in a prime position

to continue our advocacy if we want to. I think for me, I would love to continue being an advocate

for DO students, and especially the students, because I think that's kind of where our general

generation is headed. You know, like the ideas of the students now will be what's implemented in

the future. So I think it's important for us to kind of foster that.

Yeah, I completely agree. I think for my experiences, being both part of a student organization

and being on that leadership and now being on the AOA leadership and seeing the inner workings of

this organization, it's been a great transition for me. It's been a great way for me to better

understand the focus of students as compared to the focus of physicians who are a bit older,

who have been in this profession for a little bit longer now, who have some wisdom behind

some of the things that they're saying. But the students have such a fresh perspective and

have a liveliness to what they're trying to advocate for. So I really enjoy seeing both

sides of this. And I think moving forward, I'll be able to kind of keep that vitality in

the way that I advocate, but also understand the patience and the foundational change that comes

with having some experience, having some years in, like kind of under the belt,

of being an advocate for the osteopathic profession. So I do hope to continue in leadership.

So part of my position in being the AOA student trustee is I'm the co-vice chair for a bureau

within the AOA, the Bureau of Emerging Leaders. And so I will be immediate past student trustee

on that position. So I believe I technically have a leadership role, this as an intern, and will be

attending some of those meetings. But big passion of mine outside of student and profession advocacy

is going to be advocating for my patients. And like I said, Chicago is a great place for that.

And I've personally worked on a project of kind of streamlining education,

surrounding human trafficking victims, and how we can better get them to the right resources and

potentially rehab facilities, whatever they might need. And that's something that I talked about

in interviewing with Chicago programs. And I'm definitely looking forward to including that in

my advocacy efforts as well.

I do want to kind of go back a little to what Edie said. Edie actually mentioned

feeling and seeing that she was burned out. Just with that, I kind of want to get into how you both

obtained a work-life balance, and was having a significant other in med school, in addition to that.

So with having a work-life balance, I, like I said, the way that I lead my life, I do focus

on mind, body, and spirit. So being active, being healthy is a huge part of my mental health.

If I feel like I'm lacking in that in any sort of way, I don't have those natural endorphins.

I don't feel like I've really given to myself. A lot of studying feels like you're kind of

giving your time away. You're not, you know, feeding into other parts, like friendships or yourself.

So for me, I had a best friend who enjoyed a lot of the same things as me. So we'd go work out together,

or after a huge exam, we'd go do a swim workout, and grab lunch together after that. So that was a

huge part of me maintaining work-life balance. I also am a musician, and I stayed involved in

an orchestra through a church that I attended during medical school, and it was very low-key,

very easy, just on Sundays and for Christmas and Easter concerts, you know, Fourth of July things.

So keeping those things that were important to me really helped me balance those things out. I also,

I probably cared at the beginning, but once I realized it's kind of unattainable, I didn't care

anymore about having to do the work-life balance. So that was a huge part of me.

I didn't care anymore about having top grades. Like, I definitely wasn't like last in the class

I put my effort in, but I was not as worried about getting A's on every exam, or even B's,

sometimes like, depending on how the class went. I honestly just did my best to understand the

material to the best of my ability, while still maintaining my own sanity through physical fitness

and friendships. And because of that fifth year of medical school, I actually didn't meet Ed until

I was an anatomy TA between first and second year, and Ed was starting his first year. So

I developed that friendship and continued that even as Ed and I developed our relationship.

And just being in a relationship with Ed, honestly, like we would study together, we were able to work

out together as well. And just the more people that you can have kind of in that closely knit

inner circle that you're able to trust and confide in, I think that's honestly the best way to have

that work-life balance. For me, work-life balance is something that I had to really work hard to

kind of obtain. And it didn't always come to me because I used to study, study, study, and put off

working out and eating healthy and stuff like that. And that was terrible for me. I would get,

you know, depressed and frustrated about it. And I realized I burned, I was burning out.

And so for me, it was a lot of putting myself first and knowing when to take my foot off the

gas pedal. That was kind of the best way to develop a work-life balance and to figure out

what was important for me. And having Ed was a super helpful thing because having a partner

that is also going through the same thing helps you deal with med school a lot better.

I think maybe what Ed's trying to say is you don't have to explain everything that you're

going through because your partner already knows. And sometimes it's easier just to sit in

whatever stressful situation it is without having to explain it or relive it in certain times.

When you have someone who understands what you're going through and, you know, you could just call

it and say, Hey, let's just go grab dinner. It's not sticking right now, or just switch it up and

create a quick little date night. A lot of our dates were study dates, but if you could create

a little date night to get away from things, then that was a huge plus in kind of trying to balance

things out. That's not to say that it was always easy, just because Ed and I are both in medicine.

Right. Med school gets to you. It does. It gets to everybody at some point, I think. And the stress

can sometimes be overbearing. And Ed and I have had our fair share of arguments and disagreements,

but where having a partner in medicine comes in helpful is that we realize that, Hey, whoa,

this isn't us. This is the stress of med school talking. Let's take a step backwards.

Let's take a step backwards and kind of figure out why, you know, why we're so stressed out.

And then we'll go from there. And that's been really helpful to have in a relationship,

which is that understanding that it's not each other. It's just med school and we can work

through it together kind of thing. Yeah. Take that bigger picture in.

What was the one thing about you both, or you as individuals, obviously, that made you successful

in your pre-med and medical careers? If there was one adjective to describe yourself or a

superpower that you had during med school that pushed you through, what would it be?

Edie? Oh, I definitely have a word and I guess it's a superpower, but

sheer grit. I think all it takes is sheer grit. It's not being the top 1% of your class,

which obviously maybe that helps. I had a lot of friends who were just geniuses and class was very

easy for them. That was not my superpower. That was their superpowers. But for me, it was just sheer

grit. I think it's something I learned from my dad. It doesn't matter how you feel about something

sometimes. You just got to put your head down and do it. And a lot of moments in med school are kind

of like that. I would say that's honestly what really got me through those tough times. I think

for me, the one word I would use to describe my quote unquote superpower is determination.

I refuse to let anybody tell me I can't do something. And the only person that's going to

beat myself is me. I think that people come into med school and they want to compare themselves to

others because the whole culture of comparing test scores, comparing board scores, comparing

how many interviews did you get? Did you interview here? That doesn't matter to me.

I'm indifferent to what other people are doing because I'm really focusing on what I need to do

to succeed. And so the determination has made me successful because going into an OA rotation at

a really nice hospital, I don't care who else is with me on service. We're going to be colleagues.

We're going to be equals. I'm just going to work as hard as I can so that my patients get the best

care that they can. And that success has paid off a ton. So for me, determination has been kind of

that defining characteristic of mine. Definitely motivating words. I'd like to ask

both of you, if you had someone looking at little Ed and little Edie right before

getting into med school or the first day of med school, what piece of advice would you give

your first year selves? What advice, what kind of advice would you give and motivation

to kind of last through the four years of med school? I would tell that person to just

chill. I think if you can kind of see the theme of my advice is to have good mental health.

And I think people come into med school all high strung and keyed up about I need to do this and

I need to do that. I need to get this score in order to match this specialty in this particular

hospital to do this. And I think that's kind of how you burn out. And these type of people

keep their foot on the gas pedal until there's no more gas. And they forget that med school is a

marathon and it's not a sprint. And they run out of gas within that first year or even second year

or so on before they get to become a doctor. And for me, it's like just chill. Know when to take

your foot off the gas and give yourself some love and give yourself a little bit of time to yourself.

Because if you don't know how to recognize that you need that time, it's going to be really hard

for you when you're a physician. Because if you can't take care of yourself, how can you expect

yourself to take care of others kind of thing? And my big piece of advice would be just to chill

and to relax a little bit. Med school is tough, but you'll get through it and it's okay to love

yourself. My piece of advice would be to not sell yourself short. You have a lot to offer. You have

your own personal background that nobody else has. You can draw from that in the way that you

approach your patients, in the way that you approach your studies. Be open to new interests

and don't shut things down before maybe trying out that opportunity. Obviously,

if you think about stepping across a pond or a stream and there's rocks, you look for the

direct path. Don't go into a rock too far right or too far left. It just kind of leads to a dead end.

Keep your goals in mind, but don't sell yourself short. I would have never known that I was

interested in advocacy if I didn't try something new, try something out of my comfort zone. So

just recognize that you have a lot to offer and you are the only one in charge of that. You're

able to give or keep to yourself however much you choose.

Ed and Ed, thank you so much for coming onto the podcast and sharing your experiences. I really

can't wait to see what types of physicians you both develop into. I know you guys are going to be

amazing ED physicians. You're next, Amir, so I can't wait to see where you go.

Yeah, yeah. Well, we'll get there when I get there. But guys, thank you so much. To the audience,

please follow us on all our social media on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. We do post a

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This concludes our episode of Do or Do Not. Send all inquiries, comments, suggestions,

and even let us know if there's someone you want us to interview to do or do not podcast

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interviews lined up and we're excited to share them with you. This is Tianyu She. Thank you guys

so much for listening to Do or Do Not.